Anti-Ship missile
- Thread starter Liu Bang
- Start date
MIGleader
Banned Idiot
sea dog, the 730 has a 4600-5800 rate of fire.
and it is not the goal keeper. the dutch deny selling any goal keeper tech to china. just because it looks like the golkeeper doesnt mean it has to work like one.
n arleigh burke may have stealth, but not more than the latest chinese ships. dont underestimate chinese electronics. they have had 0ver 25 years of sk, japanese, french, u.s, russian,german, british, and indegedous imputs.
and it is not the goal keeper. the dutch deny selling any goal keeper tech to china. just because it looks like the golkeeper doesnt mean it has to work like one.
n arleigh burke may have stealth, but not more than the latest chinese ships. dont underestimate chinese electronics. they have had 0ver 25 years of sk, japanese, french, u.s, russian,german, british, and indegedous imputs.
Thank you for all your kind comments Sea Dog.
Not only is the ECM the USN has astounding..it really works. And the people operating it actually know how to operate it and repair it.
I know that in late 1990 a single E/A-6B "accidently" knocked out all electronic signals in the Washington state area for about 5-7 minutes. Just think of the capablities now.
MIGleader said:
There is no substantial evidence that supports this rate of fire for Type 730. Sinodefence is the only place I've seen it. And similar designs like Goalkeeper and (for vince - SAMOS and SATAN) the rates of fire are around 4200 rounds per minute. Did you guys know that SAMOS and SATAN are very similar to Goalkeeper also? Well the gun and gun mounts with the radars mounted away from the gun mount at any rate. Performances seem similar also. So I'm wondering where the webmasters for sinodefence got their info from. I'm not saying it's wrong...necessarily. But it is suspect. If this data can be sourced, I would be likely to believe it. But as of now, I'm not totally convinced about this capability for Type 730. But even if it only fired 4200 rounds per minute, that would still make it highly rated in this capability. How it acquires, tracks, targets, and engages still needs to be measured. I know what Phalanx, and Goalkeeper can do. Type 730 's numbers are far harder to assess at this time.
About the Arleigh Burke. It's hull form is only a part of it's overall stealth. And I don't underestimate Chinese electronics. Much of it is from absorbed technology...as you say. And FYI, US electronic warfare capabilities go way beyond this stuff. The Chinese as of yet, have not proven very capable in electronic warfare technology.
And stealth ship designs can be easily overcome as well. I think I mention it above, but radars can be used to filter out areas of the water that do not correllate to natural disturbances of the waves. But in calm waters this is much more difficult, obviously. But the main point is the level of stealth, plus the electronic warfare and C4I abilities of Arleigh Burkes are unmatched. 051 and 052 are going to be good ships for PLAN, but they will be outclassed by existing USN AEGIS ships. We don't know everything about them, but we do know they will be utilizing alot of existing naval hardware. And we do know how our radars work against these types of hull forms. And we do know the level of electronics that PLAN is at. We know what type of sensors and weapons their likely to use. We know what type of naval support they will use when deployed. Putting all this together you can come to these conclusions as well. Japanese AEGIS tech from the USA is less than current U.S. baseline, and even they are far beyond these new PLAN ships. Like it or not, PLAN still has a long way to go.
@bdpopeye - I did hear about an EA-6B incident like this. I just didn't know that it happened in Washington. I did know that the EA-6B has the ability to fry even EMP hardened equipment in tests, but I was amazed at their ability to knockdown such a widespread area. It would be real impressive to see just how much power an EA-6B would have to 'generate' to make something like this happen.
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muyang523 said:
Wikipedia is not an accurate source of information. Especially when it comes to military or engineering related topics. Youmight as well give me a website of your friend that lists the 730's with this capability. A better source would be Janes, USNI, any "official/professional" European weapons database sites, or anybody else that compiles data about worldwide military systems professionally. Wikipedia just doesn't cut it.
chopsticks
Junior Member
IMO, missiles are the way to go for future conflicts.
China's missiles don't only depend on 1 source for info, they have multiple, sources (even satellite), and these work all at the same time to provide a net of info. but yeah, the best method to deflect a missile would probably be to jamm it, but it is extremely difficult tho., and considering the "small" size of an Aircraft carrier, or destroyer, if i were on the opposing ship, i wouldn't feel too safe even if i got the missile off course by 1 or 2 degrees in the final terminal stage.
shooting down a screeching missile is even worse. picture this - Boy A and Boy B are playing in the park, they have a game where Boy A throws a stone and boy B tries to hit it whilst it is in mid air.
u get my point?
the fact remains - fast moving objects (especially the size of asm/cruise m.) are hard to hit whilst in incoming flight.
i mean look at gulfwar 2, Iraq fired some scuds and Us patriot got them - but at the cost of (sometimes) 4 missiles to down 1 Iraqi scud. i mean c'mon, scuds really ARTILLERY WITH A ROCKET which move a pre-determined flight path.
when we talk about ASM, we're talking about these fast darting wasps, which are stealthy, accurate, and even able to change direction randomly (to fool intercepts).
ps: THE NEW GENERATION ASM/CRUISE M. ARE EVEN STEALTH!!!
China's missiles don't only depend on 1 source for info, they have multiple, sources (even satellite), and these work all at the same time to provide a net of info. but yeah, the best method to deflect a missile would probably be to jamm it, but it is extremely difficult tho., and considering the "small" size of an Aircraft carrier, or destroyer, if i were on the opposing ship, i wouldn't feel too safe even if i got the missile off course by 1 or 2 degrees in the final terminal stage.
shooting down a screeching missile is even worse. picture this - Boy A and Boy B are playing in the park, they have a game where Boy A throws a stone and boy B tries to hit it whilst it is in mid air.
u get my point?the fact remains - fast moving objects (especially the size of asm/cruise m.) are hard to hit whilst in incoming flight.
i mean look at gulfwar 2, Iraq fired some scuds and Us patriot got them - but at the cost of (sometimes) 4 missiles to down 1 Iraqi scud. i mean c'mon, scuds really ARTILLERY WITH A ROCKET which move a pre-determined flight path.
when we talk about ASM, we're talking about these fast darting wasps, which are stealthy, accurate, and even able to change direction randomly (to fool intercepts).
ps: THE NEW GENERATION ASM/CRUISE M. ARE EVEN STEALTH!!!
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Interesting post on Chinese AShM:
首先看看最“酷â€的一款导弹-----“白蛉â€3M80（北约代号SS-N-22“日灸â€）。说它酷，除了名字“日灸â€有霸气之外，外型也在六款中最为威猛。
3M80安装有一台冲压式主发动机和一台固体燃料助推发动机，配有“梅纳瑞â€ME型目标定位雷达和数据交换系统。导弹的导引装置为多通道式探测头，可采用主动雷达、反辐射和抗干扰等多种模式工作。
在接近目标时可做出S型机动动作，以避开危险火力。300公斤重的穿甲战斗部里装着150公斤高爆炸药。三四枚“白蛉â€便可瘫痪一艘排水量万吨级的巡洋舰。
“白蛉â€反舰导弹的飞行速度和“几乎擦着浪尖飞行â€的终端掠海飞行弹道使美国的“宙斯盾â€系统发现导弹后的反应时间极短。它在距离目标舰仅18~27公里时才会被对方发现，用来反应或攻击的时间只有10秒左右。“白蛉â€让人无法防备。 而改进型3M80MBE型“白蛉â€射程已增大为200多公里。
美国联邦众议院几年前专门通过一项决议案，要求美国政府动用财政手段阻止俄罗斯扩散先进的“白蛉â€反舰导弹。这种美国式的恐惧表现得是多么生动和滑稽可笑。
“白蛉 â€目前最大的问题是体积大，4吨重，除了“现代â€舰，很难搭载在潜艇和空基作战平台上，对进行饱和攻击不利。
再看看刚到货的“俱乐部â€3M54E导弹：
3M54E射程为220公里，飞行速度约为240米/秒,可跃升至400米的高度飞行，以便搜索各目标，当距目标约20公里时，助推器脱落，增速至1000米/秒,进攻距水面5-10米范围的目标
3M54E弹体长8.22米，重1920千克(包括所有增速动力装置)，弹头重200千克。
3M54E1巡航导弹可通过水面舰艇或潜艇发射，射程为300公里，弹头重200千克。
虽然没有威力没有“白蛉â€大，但200千克重的弹头加上末段超音速，搞定“金刚â€级应为小菜一碟的。再配上绝佳排挡号称“大样黑洞â€基洛和200公里的射程，即使美航母战斗群在面对它时也不敢嚣张。而且3M54E1可适宜多种作战平台进行全方位的饱和攻击，符合我国现阶段的制海作战方针。是一款极其先进的反舰利器。
而X-31A，也称“Kh-31Aâ€，其看起来像缩小版的“白蛉â€，性能也非常相近，是一种空中发射的超音速反舰导弹。采用冲压发动机。导弹可以在敌方电子干扰和火力对抗环境下全天候作战。
载机在进入目标的防空区域以前即可发射导弹。尽管俄罗斯第一种组合式冲压发动机反舰导弹是1982年研制的（SS-N-22导弹系统），但X-31A导弹揭开了这类导弹发展史上新的一页。
其威力是不用怀疑的，美国为了应对其威胁，曾想花3300万美元买100枚做研究，改进舰艇防御，但缺钱的俄罗斯就是不卖。其价值之高可想而知。
X-31A导弹唯一不足可能在射程上，最新改型射程也只有100KM，需继续改进。
从以上看出，俄罗斯的导弹都各有特点，很难用一种导弹代替其他。不利于统一生产和装备。
而国产导弹则在通用化方面具有优势，研制的导弹威力大，射程远，而体积相对俄罗斯的“白蛉â€要小，可用多种平台发射，利于形成饱和攻击能力。其中最具代表性的便是以下两款。
C-803：（综合网上各种版本数据后，推测出较为可信的）
1993年，海军为了解决C-801射程短，C-802速度慢，C-301 (C-101)个头大的缺点，开始研制C-803导弹。
1998年底，该弹改进后的原型弹研制成功，该弹性能为：
弹头直径360m， 弹长6.885m，弹重1203kg，射程250km，
外形上看，C-803延续了C-802的弹体气动布局，长度似乎较C-802的6.4米更甚，其上保留了C-802的小型涡喷发动机结构，弹头整流罩较前者略为尖细，采新型固体火箭发动机，此外，折叠式弹翼的前面有一接收资料链的天线，可接受舰艇、直升机、甚至卫星的导引，也是分辨C-803同之前型号的主要识别标记。
C-803采用了高亚音速巡航，超音速终程俯冲攻击的作战模式。助推器先将导弹加速到高亚音速后由涡喷发动机接管，此时助推器脱离弹体。当外部资料链或导弹自身弹上计算机启动终程攻击程序后，二级火箭发动机点火，涡喷发动机脱离，导弹进入俯冲飞行状态，此时的导弹将在离目标20-30公里处达到1.3~1.5马赫的低超音速，取决于是否需要作战术机动动作。
中国的“鹰击83â€导弹首次亮相是在1999年的国庆50周年阅兵式上。当时，共有16部外形酷似C-802型导弹的“鹰击83â€导弹发射车驶过长安街，现场播音员短短一句“这是国产新型超音速反舰导弹â€的介绍就已经引起了境外情报部门的注意。
可以看出，C-803的性能与“俱乐部â€极为类似了，并且已发展出潜射和空射型，从战时大量装备和武器价格方面看，自己生产的C-803优势明显。
最神秘的鹰击-12（目前网上流传版本最多，流传最广的是灭9万吨航母的一篇）
看起来这篇文章介绍的很详细，但感觉意想的成分居多，如：战斗部为800公斤（相当于2个半“白蛉â€弹头）； 导弹以6-8马赫的速度在上空预警雷达的指令高空向下直击目标（冲压发动机能达到？）；潜射型其战斗部更重达1200公斤；采用微激光抗干扰系统+智能化卫星制导+ 分离假弹头+主被动二程雷达+末段入水攻击方式。（很多没听说过啊）----------这是反舰导弹吗？？？希望祖国强大没错，但科幻色彩太浓了。要实在点的。
看看更为真实的一篇介绍：
鹰击12 甲在1990 年代初由中共国务院和中共军委列为国家计划，由研制海鹰2、鹰击6、鹰击7、鹰击8、鹰击1（C－101）/ 海鹰3（C－ 301）和红鸟系列战略巡弋飞弹（射程1800 至3500 公里）的海鹰机电技术研究院CHEMTA（即前航天部第三设计研究院）负责设计试验。 1997 年已成功进行了陆上自由飞行试验，经过一系列重大改良精进后，已于1999 年10 月完成了设计定型试验，现已于今年1 月投入量产，预计在今年4 月底以前完成实际布署，其海基载台在新式万吨级神盾舰，空基载台使用歼轰7（FBC－1）。
该型飞弹的进气道设在飞弹上、下方，气动外型与ANF 很相似（注意这一句），导引段衍生自C－803，有优良的抗干扰和海象适应能力：匹配前航天部771 所专门开发的弹载超大规模集成电路（VLSIC），数据处理能力得以大幅提升，大大超过C－101、C－301、YJ－803；其高灵敏度新型无线电高度表（雷达测高计）具有适应测高功能，可快速准确地自动调准末段掠海改击飞行高度，弹道终端能作不规则蛇行机动飞行。半穿甲爆破弹头重206 公斤，超音速撞击目标时，爆破威力不下于400 公斤弹头，能轻易贯穿航空母舰的功夫龙复合材料装甲，命中一枚便可使一艘航空母舰报废，或使一艘4000 吨级的中型水面舰只沉没。飞弹的最高飞行速度为音速的2.5 倍，助推器与燃烧室为一体化设计，吸气燃烧效率极高，威力超过“战釜â€，令人不寒而溧。 射程500公里以上。
不难看出（如果资料属实的话） 鹰击12（YJ-12） 最为先进，各方面性能全面超过了“白蛉â€甚至最新的“宝石â€，只是不知什么原因目前只有170，171舰上见到，飞豹也没见挂载过？是否技术还不成熟或者价格过于昂贵？
从以上5种导弹分析，最有希望成为中国下一代制式反舰导弹的是YJ-12，希望尽快解决其可能存在的问题，大批量生产，早日看到其在各种反舰平台上的威猛雄姿。
Most of the data posted by this guy seemed to be quite commonly known stuff except for YJ-12 (aka YJ-62).
According to this, the warhead is 400KG+
The terminal speed is mach2.5
and the range is 500KM+
Sure, this is much more than the the 280KM export version, but that's bounded by the 300KM of MTCR. It's already shown that China has cruise missiles of 2500KM, so having a 500KM AShM is not outrageous to think about.
Also, one that he didn't mention:
Raduga Kh-59MK To Enter Production in 2006:
First revealed at the 2001 MAKS, Raduga’s new active-radar guided Kh-59MK anti-ship missile is now due to complete development and enter production by the second half of 2006. Originally pitched to accompany the Su-30s being marketed to the Chinese Navy, but a company official would say only that the missile would likely be delivered to existing customers for the Su-30 fighter. With a range of about 300km the Kh-59MK would significantly increase the long-range strike capability of Chinese Navy Su-30MKK2 fighter-bombers. A test model of this missile was displayed on the flight line on a Su-24 Fencer fighter-bomber. Both Iran and Libya use this strike-fighter, it should be noted.
首先看看最“酷â€的一款导弹-----“白蛉â€3M80（北约代号SS-N-22“日灸â€）。说它酷，除了名字“日灸â€有霸气之外，外型也在六款中最为威猛。
3M80安装有一台冲压式主发动机和一台固体燃料助推发动机，配有“梅纳瑞â€ME型目标定位雷达和数据交换系统。导弹的导引装置为多通道式探测头，可采用主动雷达、反辐射和抗干扰等多种模式工作。
在接近目标时可做出S型机动动作，以避开危险火力。300公斤重的穿甲战斗部里装着150公斤高爆炸药。三四枚“白蛉â€便可瘫痪一艘排水量万吨级的巡洋舰。
“白蛉â€反舰导弹的飞行速度和“几乎擦着浪尖飞行â€的终端掠海飞行弹道使美国的“宙斯盾â€系统发现导弹后的反应时间极短。它在距离目标舰仅18~27公里时才会被对方发现，用来反应或攻击的时间只有10秒左右。“白蛉â€让人无法防备。 而改进型3M80MBE型“白蛉â€射程已增大为200多公里。
美国联邦众议院几年前专门通过一项决议案，要求美国政府动用财政手段阻止俄罗斯扩散先进的“白蛉â€反舰导弹。这种美国式的恐惧表现得是多么生动和滑稽可笑。
“白蛉 â€目前最大的问题是体积大，4吨重，除了“现代â€舰，很难搭载在潜艇和空基作战平台上，对进行饱和攻击不利。
再看看刚到货的“俱乐部â€3M54E导弹：
3M54E射程为220公里，飞行速度约为240米/秒,可跃升至400米的高度飞行，以便搜索各目标，当距目标约20公里时，助推器脱落，增速至1000米/秒,进攻距水面5-10米范围的目标
3M54E弹体长8.22米，重1920千克(包括所有增速动力装置)，弹头重200千克。
3M54E1巡航导弹可通过水面舰艇或潜艇发射，射程为300公里，弹头重200千克。
虽然没有威力没有“白蛉â€大，但200千克重的弹头加上末段超音速，搞定“金刚â€级应为小菜一碟的。再配上绝佳排挡号称“大样黑洞â€基洛和200公里的射程，即使美航母战斗群在面对它时也不敢嚣张。而且3M54E1可适宜多种作战平台进行全方位的饱和攻击，符合我国现阶段的制海作战方针。是一款极其先进的反舰利器。
而X-31A，也称“Kh-31Aâ€，其看起来像缩小版的“白蛉â€，性能也非常相近，是一种空中发射的超音速反舰导弹。采用冲压发动机。导弹可以在敌方电子干扰和火力对抗环境下全天候作战。
载机在进入目标的防空区域以前即可发射导弹。尽管俄罗斯第一种组合式冲压发动机反舰导弹是1982年研制的（SS-N-22导弹系统），但X-31A导弹揭开了这类导弹发展史上新的一页。
其威力是不用怀疑的，美国为了应对其威胁，曾想花3300万美元买100枚做研究，改进舰艇防御，但缺钱的俄罗斯就是不卖。其价值之高可想而知。
X-31A导弹唯一不足可能在射程上，最新改型射程也只有100KM，需继续改进。
从以上看出，俄罗斯的导弹都各有特点，很难用一种导弹代替其他。不利于统一生产和装备。
而国产导弹则在通用化方面具有优势，研制的导弹威力大，射程远，而体积相对俄罗斯的“白蛉â€要小，可用多种平台发射，利于形成饱和攻击能力。其中最具代表性的便是以下两款。
C-803：（综合网上各种版本数据后，推测出较为可信的）
1993年，海军为了解决C-801射程短，C-802速度慢，C-301 (C-101)个头大的缺点，开始研制C-803导弹。
1998年底，该弹改进后的原型弹研制成功，该弹性能为：
弹头直径360m， 弹长6.885m，弹重1203kg，射程250km，
外形上看，C-803延续了C-802的弹体气动布局，长度似乎较C-802的6.4米更甚，其上保留了C-802的小型涡喷发动机结构，弹头整流罩较前者略为尖细，采新型固体火箭发动机，此外，折叠式弹翼的前面有一接收资料链的天线，可接受舰艇、直升机、甚至卫星的导引，也是分辨C-803同之前型号的主要识别标记。
C-803采用了高亚音速巡航，超音速终程俯冲攻击的作战模式。助推器先将导弹加速到高亚音速后由涡喷发动机接管，此时助推器脱离弹体。当外部资料链或导弹自身弹上计算机启动终程攻击程序后，二级火箭发动机点火，涡喷发动机脱离，导弹进入俯冲飞行状态，此时的导弹将在离目标20-30公里处达到1.3~1.5马赫的低超音速，取决于是否需要作战术机动动作。
中国的“鹰击83â€导弹首次亮相是在1999年的国庆50周年阅兵式上。当时，共有16部外形酷似C-802型导弹的“鹰击83â€导弹发射车驶过长安街，现场播音员短短一句“这是国产新型超音速反舰导弹â€的介绍就已经引起了境外情报部门的注意。
可以看出，C-803的性能与“俱乐部â€极为类似了，并且已发展出潜射和空射型，从战时大量装备和武器价格方面看，自己生产的C-803优势明显。
最神秘的鹰击-12（目前网上流传版本最多，流传最广的是灭9万吨航母的一篇）
看起来这篇文章介绍的很详细，但感觉意想的成分居多，如：战斗部为800公斤（相当于2个半“白蛉â€弹头）； 导弹以6-8马赫的速度在上空预警雷达的指令高空向下直击目标（冲压发动机能达到？）；潜射型其战斗部更重达1200公斤；采用微激光抗干扰系统+智能化卫星制导+ 分离假弹头+主被动二程雷达+末段入水攻击方式。（很多没听说过啊）----------这是反舰导弹吗？？？希望祖国强大没错，但科幻色彩太浓了。要实在点的。
看看更为真实的一篇介绍：
鹰击12 甲在1990 年代初由中共国务院和中共军委列为国家计划，由研制海鹰2、鹰击6、鹰击7、鹰击8、鹰击1（C－101）/ 海鹰3（C－ 301）和红鸟系列战略巡弋飞弹（射程1800 至3500 公里）的海鹰机电技术研究院CHEMTA（即前航天部第三设计研究院）负责设计试验。 1997 年已成功进行了陆上自由飞行试验，经过一系列重大改良精进后，已于1999 年10 月完成了设计定型试验，现已于今年1 月投入量产，预计在今年4 月底以前完成实际布署，其海基载台在新式万吨级神盾舰，空基载台使用歼轰7（FBC－1）。
该型飞弹的进气道设在飞弹上、下方，气动外型与ANF 很相似（注意这一句），导引段衍生自C－803，有优良的抗干扰和海象适应能力：匹配前航天部771 所专门开发的弹载超大规模集成电路（VLSIC），数据处理能力得以大幅提升，大大超过C－101、C－301、YJ－803；其高灵敏度新型无线电高度表（雷达测高计）具有适应测高功能，可快速准确地自动调准末段掠海改击飞行高度，弹道终端能作不规则蛇行机动飞行。半穿甲爆破弹头重206 公斤，超音速撞击目标时，爆破威力不下于400 公斤弹头，能轻易贯穿航空母舰的功夫龙复合材料装甲，命中一枚便可使一艘航空母舰报废，或使一艘4000 吨级的中型水面舰只沉没。飞弹的最高飞行速度为音速的2.5 倍，助推器与燃烧室为一体化设计，吸气燃烧效率极高，威力超过“战釜â€，令人不寒而溧。 射程500公里以上。
不难看出（如果资料属实的话） 鹰击12（YJ-12） 最为先进，各方面性能全面超过了“白蛉â€甚至最新的“宝石â€，只是不知什么原因目前只有170，171舰上见到，飞豹也没见挂载过？是否技术还不成熟或者价格过于昂贵？
从以上5种导弹分析，最有希望成为中国下一代制式反舰导弹的是YJ-12，希望尽快解决其可能存在的问题，大批量生产，早日看到其在各种反舰平台上的威猛雄姿。
Most of the data posted by this guy seemed to be quite commonly known stuff except for YJ-12 (aka YJ-62).
According to this, the warhead is 400KG+
The terminal speed is mach2.5
and the range is 500KM+
Sure, this is much more than the the 280KM export version, but that's bounded by the 300KM of MTCR. It's already shown that China has cruise missiles of 2500KM, so having a 500KM AShM is not outrageous to think about.
Also, one that he didn't mention:
Raduga Kh-59MK To Enter Production in 2006:
First revealed at the 2001 MAKS, Raduga’s new active-radar guided Kh-59MK anti-ship missile is now due to complete development and enter production by the second half of 2006. Originally pitched to accompany the Su-30s being marketed to the Chinese Navy, but a company official would say only that the missile would likely be delivered to existing customers for the Su-30 fighter. With a range of about 300km the Kh-59MK would significantly increase the long-range strike capability of Chinese Navy Su-30MKK2 fighter-bombers. A test model of this missile was displayed on the flight line on a Su-24 Fencer fighter-bomber. Both Iran and Libya use this strike-fighter, it should be noted.
Su-27 Pilot
Junior Member
MIGleader said:
Sea DOG can you provide any link to your info ?