Anti-Carrier Trump Card

Neko

New Member
VIP Professional
My mistake. I thought you were referring to Guam, not Okinawa.


I have found, in my many trips to Okinawa, that the Ryukyu people are generally more strong-willed than true Japanese... if they don't like you, they won't hesitate to tell you. In a polite manner. Then punch you on the nose.


I like them a lot more than the main Japanese body, and like their history more, as well. (For you history buffs, China once also had a claim to Ryukyu.)
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
bd popeye said:
When I made my original post I was not thinking of economics. I made no reference to that effect. I was thinking of protection in the event of any conflift in the western Pacific that could threaten Japan and Okinawa.

From Okinawa's point of view, the reason why their island(s) would be a military target today is because of the bases. Mainland Japanese are feeling comfy in the US-Japan security arrangement at the expense of the Okinawan people.

Now before anyone starts foaming at the mouth about Okinawan independence, let me say that it's not realistic to think Okinawa could expell both US and Japanese military and relclaim their land and Kingdom. Okinawans today speak Japanese and are willing to accept Japanese sovereignty. However their long-term goal is Okinawan self-determination.

In their vision, they see a future peaceful, semi-independent Okinawa befitting its historical identity as a non-Japanese nation-state, without US or Japanese military bases on its soil. By semi-independent, I don't mean ceding from Japan. I'll quote ex-govnernor Ota Masahide on his vision of the future:

=== quote ===
Toward self-determination

Given the political biases the Japanese state against Okinawa, Okinawans are amply justified to attempt an escape from captivity in such a state. Governor Ota' s Okinawa Prefectural Governments has recently taken a few major steps in this direction. In his testimony, he mentions two projects that Okinawa Prefecture has generated "of its own will". One is an "Action Program for the Return of the Bases." The other is a "Grand Design of an International City, Okinawa."

The land and resources released from the bases will be fed into the grand design to transform Okinawa into an international city. Detailed land-use plans assign well- conceived roles and functions to areas now occupied by the bases. The proposed schedule of base closures envisages the return to Okinawa of all the land under military occupation by 2015.

From Japan, Okinawa wants an enhanced home rule for self-determination of its own future. Okinawa wants to transform itself into an "international" city, not a "Japanese" city. Okinawa has legitimate claims to its distinct identity. All the "special" treatments (most of them "specially" bad) that Okinawa has historically received from Japan speak of how different Okinawa is from Japan. Okinawa now demands "special" treatments that are good for Okinawa and formulated on its terms.

The international status desired by Okinawa requires a whole host of exceptions to the Japanese system of center-local relations. "International Okinawa" must allow free movements of people, goods, money, information, etc. between Okinawa and the rest of the world. A plethora of regulations and border controls must go.

The vision: Foreigners enter or leave Okinawa freely without visas; foreign corporations and financial institutions operate in Okinawa as freely as in most liberal countries of the world; Okinawa is empowered to play an independent diplomacy over a wide range of economic and cultural exchanges; Okinawa functions as a hub for al sorts of transport and communications networks; and so on.

To make all this palatable to the Japanese, Okinawans have coopted the Chinese slogan, "One Country, Two Systems." The Japanese are generally receptive to international precedents. In recent years, even the most Japanocentric circles of Japanese leadership such as the state bureaucracy and the conservative political wings recognize the desirability of restructuring as a new cure for the perceived ills of Japanese economy and society. "Okinawan independence" can be seen as part of these structural reforms for Japan. Ironically, for better or for worse, Okinawa ends up serving the interest of Japan!

=== end quote ===
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Admin - I apologize for getting overly off-topic here.
 

Neko

New Member
VIP Professional
Trust me. I'd like to see Kadena closed down, and have Naha or Okinawa City beautified. It's little more than a ghetto right now.

Consequentally, it isn't be cause a carrier is there... The Kittyhawk is up north, on one of the onther islands. Honshu, I think. Might be mistaken on the exact one. I think it is at Yokosuka port. Maybe Misawa. Dunno.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Neko said:
Trust me. I'd like to see Kadena closed down, and have Naha or Okinawa City beautified. It's little more than a ghetto right now.

Consequentally, it isn't be cause a carrier is there... The Kitty Hawk is up north, on one of the onther islands. Honshu, I think. Might be mistaken on the exact one. I think it is at Yokosuka port. Maybe Misawa. Dunno.

The Kitty Hawk Strike group(9 ships in all) is homeported in Yokosuka. Along with the USS Blue Ridge LCC-19. An amphipous group is homeported in Sasebo.

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Neko

New Member
VIP Professional
Yea... well, furthest north I've been is Tokyo, never really anywhere else besides Oki.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Well I'm going to try to keep this thread going..Aparently the PRC would try some sort of surprise attack on a CSG(CVBG). I really don't understand how this would be accomplished in this day of intelligence gathering satillites etc.

I think the main problem for the PRC is the US ablity to stand off the battle area 200km + and wage war from a distance.
 

Neko

New Member
VIP Professional
bd popeye said:
Well I'm going to try to keep this thread going..Aparently the PRC would try some sort of surprise attack on a CSG(CVBG). I really don't understand how this would be accomplished in this day of intelligence gathering satillites etc.

I think the main problem for the PRC is the US ablity to stand off the battle area 200km + and wage war from a distance.


It is only possible if they make full use of their Kilos. Ask your son about how loud a Kilo 636 is compared to say, a ming.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Neko said:
It is only possible if they make full use of their Kilos. Ask your son about how loud a Kilo 636 is compared to say, a ming.

:) My son got a Navy acheviement medal for tracking a Ming for 8 hours. He never lost contact :) ..He also was doing something else..can't say..while tracking the Ming that the Ming was unaware of :) Would not wanna be on a Ming in time of war.

I just talked to him Saturday. A Kilo is... :D a good quiet boat. But not quiet enough to be undectable. a good boat never the less. Hard to track. He can tell me only little things...The Song however is very quiet....Almost impossible to track at this time. But the USN is working on that.
 
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Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Song is more quiet than kilo??? wow. What is yuan class gonna be like then? Or are you talking about the original kilo, like the first 2 kilos china got, not all these 10 other improved kilo class they have or are getting?

As for a surprise attack... short of the carrier walking into a submarine ambush (which would basically require lots of guesswork and lots of sheer luck to predict the location where carrier will go to), i don't see it happening. Nor are the chinese hopeing to pull off a surprising attack.

IF chinese are determined to try to neutralize a carrier threat, i see a massive air attack as most likely. Perhaps in accordance with some PLAN forces but a pure air attack seems even more likely to me.

There'd be little surprise there, of course, US would know something's going on a day early and they'd know an attack is imminent hours in advance. Basically, question there is whether they'd believe enough in their own strength to stand ground and hope to fight off the attack or would they temporarely retreat out of range.

If they choose the fight, it'd be pure, massive power, massive numbers attack. No surprise or special wonder tactic or silver bullet weapons. It'd be blood, sweat and death, great losses until china achieves its mission. Or doesn't, if it shows they were too confident in their abilities.

I just don't see the point. They may put one carrier out of comission, maybe even more than that, they will anger US and make em even more determined to fight, and ultimately that one victory would be pointless.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
The Kilo has been widely exported (21 hulls) around the world. It wouldn't surprise me if the USN intelligence was able to collect data on it from one of its customers.

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