American Economics Thread

[manqiangrexue]

No. In the US, if the social safety system is even quasi-functioning, you might after several years get the "opportunity" to move into a drug-infested rat warren.

No, you can get put into a homeless shelter or join many other government housing programs. If drug and rat infestations are a problem then you're not grateful for the free things you get to help you get back on your feet. Once again, you just need a place to keep you warm and 3 free meals a day so you can get your paycheck and move on. You're not getting put up in a hotel to be comfy there long term.

Commute to a job? Not without a car, you won't.

These shelters are often in the city. If you're kinda far, get a bike or get up early and take public transport.

Better hope there's some third-hand piece of trash masquerading as a car available and you can afford it with a payday loan.

Well, if that's what you can afford, then that's what you get. What? The government owes you a new Camry to congratulate your intent to work?

That's because to house the homeless, you need houses. The US and its OnlyFans economy doesn't build houses.

They build houses but you gotta pay for them to own them, just like in China. No free houses for homeless people.

OK here's what Chinese government gives that US government doesn't:

1. Much better infrastructure so there is no burden of car ownership which costs an average of

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The end result, getting people from A to B in X time, is the same or better.

I'll give it to you, but I've mentioned that China is better than the US. This is one of those places but it's not something that makes it impossible for someone willing to fight to get on their feet in the US. Bikes and public transport suck but if you're committed to pulling yourself up, they're just fine.

2. Extremely cheap college so teenagers don't have to take on life changing loans with limited information.

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, easily paid out of pocket or with small loans, while

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Community college in the US is basically free.

3. Use of Gaokao scores instead of GPA so if someone messes up it only takes 1 year to change and do better on the test rather than have historical mistakes baked in.

Community colleges in the US will take you regardless of how low your SAT or GPA are.

4. Taking responsibility for growing the economy, reducing crime and eliminating drugs rather than throw it all to personal responsibility. First step to solve a problem is to admit the problem exists.

Drugs and criminal activity as well as economic growth are all a spectrum. China's doing better but the US has an economy that is stronger than every country other than China. This is basically saying that the government needs to provide everyone with a fail-proof environment to succeed. Rather 330M people are living in homes. Why are those >700K unable to do it? If they don't work, what does the US government do? Give them free homes and free money? Cus the latter is true already. These people need to be cut loose.

5. Crack down on loan sharks and loan shark wannabes like direct loans from Ant Financial that keep people in poverty. No such thing as paycheck loans in China.

Personal responsibility failure. They enter into a contract of their choice. These businesses didnt' hunt them down and force them to do it. If they are closed down, that's just one less choice/route/possibility for someone in dire need to get a little money. Sometimes this loan, when made by a responsible person with a plan, can be the start to his life getting back on track. But taken by and irresponsible person who needs his fix now, it is a path to further destruction. Ban these places, you can ban kitchen knives because stupid people can cut themselves with them.

6. Extremely cheap social housing and outright giving free houses sometimes. Even up to the 90s people got free houses for working for a SOE.

Not to homeless people. China gives homes sometimes to attract sea turtle talent from abroad. Giving free houses to homeless people is a losing proposition. It makes people angry that they've worked for years but can't afford a house and someone laying in the street got one for free. It encourages homelessness. Which is why China doesn't do it.

7. Faster and cheaper internet and phone in China reducing cost of doing business, this is a direct consequence of not having for profit phone monopolies.

LOL What? That's not the CCP's hand. ZTE got KO'd in the first 10 seconds of round 1 when it got sanctioned. Huawei stepped up and fought the long fight. The result is higher living standards to those who can afford internet and phones, which is great for business but has very little if any impact on the impoverished or homeless.

Why is there lying flat in China but not lying flat in the US? Because China allows people to lie flat and quit life if they choose to do so while they'll end up homeless in the US.

What are you talking about? Lying flat and quit life? If you don't work in China and you own neither savings or a home, you will end up homeless, just like in the US. There are homeless people in China, you know. This is good motivation. We shouldn't live in a society where anyone can just declare themselves in indefinite time out and the government will give them everything and keep them comfortable. That society is not competitive, cannot rise, and rewards sloth while penalizing excellence by heavily taxing the overachievers to give free things to the growing population who have figured out they don't need to work to be happy and comfortable on someone else's dime.

China not merely has great achievements at the top but also is setting up a society so the average person can be a contributor if they choose but otherwise can just be regular and live life.

Yes, that's very good. Improvements to the average lifestyle make the country.

In the US the average person has to struggle to just survive.

No. The US has, once again, 330M people, ~10% in "poverty", less that a third of a percent homeless. The average isn't struggling and if they feel like they are, it's because they're used to a much easier life where they didn't have to work hard to take lots. The average blue collar worker in the US has a much higher salary compared to living expenses than the average Chinese blue collar worker but only if they budget, even a little bit. Chinese factories workers will live in a basement studio apartment with 5 other people, everyone with a cage around their bunk beds for their belongings and work 16 hours a day to send funds to their kids for school. American factory workers are complaining that the average cost to rent a nice apartment is $1700 and too high. That's a very very different definition of struggling.

Shelters and social services are pretty terrible. People get beaten, robbed, and sometimes raped there, and sometimes by the workers themselves.

We're looking for a temporary livable solution. Hardships are fine. This is not a free 5 star hotel.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

No, you can get put into a homeless shelter or join many other government housing programs. If drug and rat infestations are a problem then you're not grateful for the free things you get to help you get back on your feet. Once again, you just need a place to keep you warm and 3 free meals a day so you can get your paycheck and move on. You're not getting put up in a hotel to be comfy there long term.

These shelters are often in the city. If you're kinda far, get a bike or get up early and take public transport.

Well, if that's what you can afford, then that's what you get. What? The government owes you a new Camry to congratulate your intent to work?

They build houses but you gotta pay for them to own them, just like in China. No free houses for homeless people.

I'll give it to you, but I've mentioned that China is better than the US. This is one of those places but it's not something that makes it impossible for someone willing to fight to get on their feet in the US. Bikes and public transport suck but if you're committed to pulling yourself up, they're just fine.

Community college in the US is basically free.

Community colleges in the US will take you regardless of how low your SAT or GPA are.

Drugs and criminal activity as well as economic growth are all a spectrum. China's doing better but the US has an economy that is stronger than every country other than China. This is basically saying that the government needs to provide everyone with a fail-proof environment to succeed. Rather 330M people are living in homes. Why are those >700K unable to do it? If they don't work, what does the US government do? Give them free homes and free money? Cus the latter is true already. These people need to be cut loose.

Personal responsibility failure. They enter into a contract of their choice. These businesses didnt' hunt them down and force them to do it. If they are closed down, that's just one less choice/route/possibility for someone in dire need to get a little money. Sometimes this loan, when made by a responsible person with a plan, can be the start to his life getting back on track. But taken by and irresponsible person who needs his fix now, it is a path to further destruction. Ban these places, you can ban kitchen knives because stupid people can cut themselves with them.

Not to homeless people. China gives homes sometimes to attract sea turtle talent from abroad. Giving free houses to homeless people is a losing proposition. It makes people angry that they've worked for years but can't afford a house and someone laying in the street got one for free. It encourages homelessness. Which is why China doesn't do it.

LOL What? That's not the CCP's hand. ZTE got KO'd in the first 10 seconds of round 1 when it got sanctioned. Huawei stepped up and fought the long fight. The result is higher living standards to those who can afford internet and phones, which is great for business but has very little if any impact on the impoverished or homeless.

What are you talking about? Lying flat and quit life? If you don't work in China and you own neither savings or a home, you will end up homeless, just like in the US. There are homeless people in China, you know. This is good motivation. We shouldn't live in a society where anyone can just declare themselves in indefinite time out and the government will give them everything and keep them comfortable. That society is not competitive, cannot rise, and rewards sloth while penalizing excellence by heavily taxing the overachievers to give free things to the growing population who have figured out they don't need to work to be happy and comfortable on someone else's dime.

Yes, that's very good. Improvements to the average lifestyle make the country.

No. The US has, once again, 330M people, ~10% in "poverty", less that a third of a percent homeless. The average isn't struggling and if they feel like they are, it's because they're used to a much easier life where they didn't have to work hard to take lots. The average blue collar worker in the US has a much higher salary compared to living expenses than the average Chinese blue collar worker but only if they budget, even a little bit. Chinese factories workers will live in a basement studio apartment with 5 other people, everyone with a cage around their bunk beds for their belongings and work 16 hours a day to send funds to their kids for school. American factory workers are complaining that the average cost to rent a nice apartment is $1700 and too high. That's a very very different definition of struggling.

We're looking for a temporary livable solution. Hardships are fine. This is not a free 5 star hotel.

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America has experienced “a complete collapse of the bottom 50 percent income share in the U.S. between 1978 to 2015,” the authors wrote. “In contrast, and in spite of a similar qualitative trend, the bottom 50 percent share remains higher than the top 1 percent share in 2015 in China.”
About 117 million American adults are living on income that has stagnated at about $16,200 per year before taxes and transfer payments, Piketty, Saez and Zucman found in research published last year.

Meanwhile, economic growth in China has been so strong that -- despite widening inequality -- the incomes of the bottom 50 percent have also “grown markedly,” the economists wrote. Their analysis found that the poorest half of Chinese workers saw their average income grow more than 400 percent from 1978 to 20015. For their American counterparts, income decreased 1 percent.

In addition this is a somewhat outdated article. Income inequality in China declined since 2017 according to World Bank data while continuing to increase in the US.

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Hasn't changed in almost 10 years either.

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It can't be that 50% of the population is bad at managing money. If it is then the government is irresponsible and allowing people to fall to predatory financial institutions.

Even NYT admits there is social housing in China for the extremely poor:

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Average community college cost in the US is still 1/10 of GDP per capita, still more expensive than China's. And GDP per capita is higher than median wages in the US.

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Surprised you have not heard of lying flat, even think tankies in the US heard of it.

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[manqiangrexue]

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In addition this is a somewhat outdated article. Income inequality in China declined since 2017 according to World Bank data while continuing to increase in the US.

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Hasn't changed in almost 10 years either.

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Even NYT admits there is social housing in China for the extremely poor:

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Average community college cost in the US is still 1/10 of GDP per capita, still more expensive than China's. And GDP per capita is higher than median wages in the US.

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Yeah so all that shows is that China does better, which I agree with. But it doesn't take into any account of the other differences mainly culture and people. Are you saying that all the bums and drug addicts, if moved to China, would all reform into good citizens? Are you saying that the impoverished Chinese, when they get to the US, they will continue to be impoverished and unable to pick themselves up? If you're saying that one is persoanally responsible for themselves, but the government is, then that's what you're saying.

And we're going in circles. I keep saying that the US is doing a more than adequate job for its poor while China is just better. And you think you're making a good argument by showing me that China's better.

America's doing a more than adequate job with the housing programs, monthly food stamps and assistance, etc... It's not as good as China's ability to instill a culture of fighting for better lives, but it's more than what anyone should be handed for free.

It can't be that 50% of the population is bad at managing money. If it is then the government is irresponsible and allowing people to fall to predatory financial institutions.

Oh yes it can. It's American culture to spend what you don't have and live it up. As I've said before, many times, the US government provides materially very well for its poor, but it fails at instilling the correct culture. It's asking too much. You can ban predatory loans but there's a black market just like in drugs. Then you have to ban alcohol. Ban partying, smoking, gambling, ban everything and leave nothing to personal choice or responsibility, all on government regulation, right? LOL

Surprised you have not heard of lying flat, even think tankies in the US heard of it.

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Yeah that's not good. That needs to be eradicated instead of nurtured. In the US, most people are also lying flat at their jobs and getting along fine but at least they can show up unlike the drunk druggie bums.

The overarching attitude of homelessness and poverty being a systemic failure as opposed to a personali failure in a society that is as rich as the US in per capita resouces screams weakness. The right attitude is that if anyone make it in here, then I can. But instead, the attitude is that if anyone could have done anything more for me and didn't, then my poverty is their fault, not mine.

 

[Michaelsinodef]

Yeah so all that shows is that China does better, which I agree with. But it doesn't take into any account of the other differences mainly culture and people. Are you saying that all the bums and drug addicts, if moved to China, would all reform into good citizens? Are you saying that the impoverished Chinese, when they get to the US, they will continue to be impoverished and unable to pick themselves up? If you're saying that one is persoanally responsible for themselves, but the government is, then that's what you're saying.

And we're going in circles. I keep saying that the US is doing a more than adequate job for its poor while China is just better. And you think you're making a good argument by showing me that China's better.

America's doing a more than adequate job with the housing programs, monthly food stamps and assistance, etc... It's not as good as China's ability to instill a culture of fighting for better lives, but it's more than what anyone should be handed for free.

Oh yes it can. It's American culture to spend what you don't have and live it up. As I've said before, many times, the US government provides materially very well for its poor, but it fails at instilling the correct culture. It's asking too much. You can ban predatory loans but there's a black market just like in drugs. Then you have to ban alcohol. Ban partying, smoking, gambling, ban everything and leave nothing to personal choice or responsibility, all on government regulation, right? LOL

Yeah that's not good. That needs to be eradicated instead of nurtured. In the US, most people are also lying flat at their jobs and getting along fine but at least they can show up unlike the drunk druggie bums.

The overarching attitude of homelessness and poverty being a systemic failure as opposed to a personali failure in a society that is as rich as the US in per capita resouces screams weakness. The right attitude is that if anyone make it in here, then I can. But instead, the attitude is that if anyone could have done anything more for me and didn't, then my poverty is their fault, not mine.

Dude, it's normal for people to make mistakes or be wrong on something, and this is a case where you're wrong (widespread poverty of US is a social problem and not a personal responsibility problem, although yes, for some people in the US, it might be a personal responsibility problem, but as a whole, it really is a wider social problem in the US).

@FairAndUnbiased and others have provided plenty of links, stats and citations (of studies, analysises etc.) while you really haven't (and overall, people here on the forum also backs their posts with likes compared to yours).

And again, this is likewise also the OFFICIAL STANCE of China's government! (link to earlier post with links to it American Economics Thread) and I TRUST their judgement over yours (and everyone should as well, especially considering that poverty is something that China's government has tackled themselves in the poverty alleviation campaign, and has lots of experience in. Oh yea, and poverty alleviation hasn't stopped either, it's only absolute poverty that has been elimated, there's still lots of work to be done).

 

[siegecrossbow]

There are plenty of very lazy people in China. There are many instances of poverty alleviation officials getting fed up with idiot villagers who would eat the chickens and sheep gifted to them by the government instead of raising them as a herd. There are also some villagers who use poverty alleviation money on booze, but they weren’t chased out into the woods and left to starve.

 

[TK3600]

It's surprising to hear you parrot US capitalist "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" propaganda. What does China give them? This:
View attachment 124270

Virgin "pull yourself by the bootstrap" vs chad "common prosperity".

I think there is some truth in his idea though. Americans do lack personal responsibility. But that is not important. Government management? Laziness? The cause dont matter. What matters is what should be done. Government cannot be everyones nanny but it should look out for people's well being at reasonable level. Or at very least, not actively harm it. It dont have to be give everyone 5 star hotel. It could be fostering a culture of hard work and responsibilty. And ensure a social environment where hard work pays off, thieves are punished.

Yeah so all that shows is that China does better, which I agree with. But it doesn't take into any account of the other differences mainly culture and people. Are you saying that all the bums and drug addicts, if moved to China, would all reform into good citizens? Are you saying that the impoverished Chinese, when they get to the US, they will continue to be impoverished and unable to pick themselves up? If you're saying that one is persoanally responsible for themselves, but the government is, then that's what you're saying.

And we're going in circles. I keep saying that the US is doing a more than adequate job for its poor while China is just better. And you think you're making a good argument by showing me that China's better.

America's doing a more than adequate job with the housing programs, monthly food stamps and assistance, etc... It's not as good as China's ability to instill a culture of fighting for better lives, but it's more than what anyone should be handed for free.

Oh yes it can. It's American culture to spend what you don't have and live it up. As I've said before, many times, the US government provides materially very well for its poor, but it fails at instilling the correct culture. It's asking too much. You can ban predatory loans but there's a black market just like in drugs. Then you have to ban alcohol. Ban partying, smoking, gambling, ban everything and leave nothing to personal choice or responsibility, all on government regulation, right? LOL

Yeah that's not good. That needs to be eradicated instead of nurtured. In the US, most people are also lying flat at their jobs and getting along fine but at least they can show up unlike the drunk druggie bums.

The overarching attitude of homelessness and poverty being a systemic failure as opposed to a personali failure in a society that is as rich as the US in per capita resouces screams weakness. The right attitude is that if anyone make it in here, then I can. But instead, the attitude is that if anyone could have done anything more for me and didn't, then my poverty is their fault, not mine.

I mean, Americans are not always lazy. They were up to 80s considered hardworking stereotype. Protestant work ethics and all that. I wondet what changed. It can't be genes. Cultural shift? It gotta be stopped one way or other before social collapse.

 

[quim]

Throughout history, anywhere in the world, there have always been addicts and mentally ill people in addition to lazy people and beggars.

Any government of a decent society does not leave these people lying on the streets, posing a risk to themselves and making the cities dirty. In the past, these people were taken to asylums and clinics or to jail or military service in the case of lazy people, who were treated like thieves for not working.

In the West today the problem is entirely the responsibility of the government and culture. The government no longer give adequate treatment to mentally ill people and also, due to the large number of dysfunctional families with terrible parents and bad education, many people end up abandoned on the streets with no prospects and fall into drug addictions and vagabondage.

Only in the West and western dependencies problems with homelessness are emerging and growing today.

 

[manqiangrexue]

Dude, it's normal for people to make mistakes or be wrong on something,

Well if it's ok then go ahead and admit it because it's not me.

and this is a case where you're wrong (widespread poverty of US is a social problem and not a personal responsibility problem, although yes, for some people in the US, it might be a personal responsibility problem, but as a whole, it really is a wider social problem in the US).

@FairAndUnbiased and others have provided plenty of links, stats and citations (of studies, analysises etc.) while you really haven't (and overall, people here on the forum also backs their posts with likes compared to yours).

And again, this is likewise also the OFFICIAL STANCE of China's government! (link to earlier post with links to it American Economics Thread) and I TRUST their judgement over yours (and everyone should as well, especially considering that poverty is something that China's government has tackled themselves in the poverty alleviation campaign, and has lots of experience in. Oh yea, and poverty alleviation hasn't stopped either, it's only absolute poverty that has been elimated, there's still lots of work to be done).

The links provided give insight to what others think; you're the second person here to tell me that it's an official CCP stance. LOL Does that make you think it has to be true because it overrides your own thought? It doesn't override mine; I have spent my life in the US. The CCP is alien to this place and so are their principles. In this instance, their judgement is not much different from the official stance of the US government on Chinese society. The truth, the ultimate truth, is my bolded part from my last post:

"The right attitude is that if anyone can make it in here, then I can. But instead, the attitude is that if anyone could have done anything more for me and didn't, then my poverty is their fault, not mine."

Nothing from any link can or any government can override this logic. American poverty is ~10% of the population and homelessness a third of a percent (I can give you a link for that but those numbers are easy to Google). If 90% can make it, why can't they? If 3 kids failed in a class of 30, and you see them, see that they're always out back smoking and drinking and they never show up for class, does the fault lie with these kids and their parents or with the school? Why are the other 27 doing fine?

I realize that my opinion is in the minority here and honestly it makes me sad and surprised that so many Chinese people here lack that sense of self-responsibility. Chinese people are the type of people who get smuggled into the US in ships wrapped in dirty blankets, all their belongings in a sack, and a few decades later, own businesses with kids in med school and net worth in the millions. They are personally responsible, accept no excuses for failure and to them, the US is just a trove of oppertunties. Instead, I'm seeing here all these snowflakes complaining that the US government doesn't give people free high quality everything and an inject the right morals and culture into them essentially making it impossible to fail so it's the government's fault.

I mean, Americans are not always lazy. They were up to 80s considered hardworking stereotype. Protestant work ethics and all that. I wondet what changed. It can't be genes. Cultural shift? It gotta be stopped one way or other before social collapse.

In this case, as I said before, they are victims of their own success. Like the end of China's dynastic period, the people were decadent and irresponsible. They were not used to the need to work hard and fight. National crisis pulled them back. Americans were too successful in the past and a future where they need to fight very hard to compete globally, with China, is just too much of a shock. The truth is that there is still much more per capita resources in the US than in China and American common workers have a much easier life than Chinese ones but compared to the past, Chinese workers see nothing but gains and Americans see nothing but loss so they are complaining and basically going into shock even as they have much more. Chinese workers are happier and plugging away with less not only because it's an improvement but Chinese people are culturally invested in the future; they are happy working very hard for less if their money is going into their kids' education so they can become white collars. Americans just don't have that culture; theirs is one of immediate decadence.

Oh, and America's population did see significant genetic changes since the 80's, and that's why I think a bounce back from crisis will be hard.

Throughout history, anywhere in the world, there have always been addicts and mentally ill people in addition to lazy people and beggars.

Any government of a decent society does not leave these people lying on the streets, posing a risk to themselves and making the cities dirty. In the past, these people were taken to asylums and clinics or to jail or military service in the case of lazy people, who were treated like thieves for not working.

In the West today the problem is entirely the responsibility of the government and culture. The government no longer give adequate treatment to mentally ill people and also, due to the large number of dysfunctional families with terrible parents and bad education, many people end up abandoned and alone in the world with no prospects and fall into drug addiction.

Only in the West and western dependencies problems with homelessness are emerging and growing today.

OK, as I said in a past post, the only way a government can override personal responsibility is to take over people's lives. Give them a post, tell them to do a job, and if they don't lock them up. If anyone tried to violently mob rob a store, all of them locked up for life or shot on sight. No delinquents on the street. I support this type of government and I think this change would help the US but I don't think anyone else here is taking this from your angle.

 

[paiemon]

Shelters and social services are pretty terrible. People get beaten, robbed, and sometimes raped there, and sometimes by the workers themselves.

Yea, most shelters for adults (especially men's) are basically an open space (think gymnasium) where you sleep on cots with your few belongings stashed around you, repeated for hundreds of people sleeping there. It is not dorm style living with small individual rooms and shared facilities, it is not even like a hostel with shared rooms. Some women's or children's shelters might operate on that model which is much safer but is also more expensive. So you take that atmosphere, mix in some unstable, volatile people among the population (shelters can turn away those they deem a danger but its not always obvious) and you get what @siegecrossbow is describing. Its hard to blame people for choosing to stay on the streets when being "sheltered" can result in being violently assaulted.

 

[SlothmanAllen]

One thing people need to understand about homelessness is that it is heavily tied to mental health and/or substance abuse. Do not just assume that people who are homeless are lazy. Many are struggling with severe mental health issues and/or substance abuse problems. My fried worked in a homeless shelter for years, and getting these people treatment is very difficult. Many of the situations are very tragic.