AL-31F / FN in China and background

Deino

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All the AL-31FN series have a different location for gearbox accessories. All AL-31FN are essentially customized AL-31F so it can be fitted on the J-10. No other plane used the FN series. There are several other minor changes including dimesntions and weight.AL-31FN Vs. AL-31F.

You definitely cannot fit the FN series to a Flanker. I'd assume that the J-20 requires original gearbox layout instead of the modified FN arrangement.


That's known since ages but why would a twin-engine fighter - as You assume - the gear-box on top? As far as I know it is more a decision on maintenance ... and since CAC decided to follow the US/Western approach it decided to use a gear-box on the bottom development. As far as I know both the final series F-15E and F-16C/D could use - and here even interchangeable - the F100-PW-220.

Deino
 

Deino

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Just another question ... if I had to bet I would say we already had such a thread concerning "Saturn AL-31F (Flanker) vs. AL-31FN (J-10)"!

I know I once started this topic both at the Secret-projects-forum:
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... and the Key-Forum:
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However here I cannot find it anymore !! o_O:confused::mad::(

Deino
 
Last edited:

b787

Captain
To reconcile the difference between you two, which engine do you think the J-20 uses? Deino's stance is pretty clear, so what about you, b787?
Let me first tell you I am not an expert and by that i mean an aeronautics engineer or an expert in engines, i am an engineer, but not in that area, so i am a fanboy.

My opinion does not have any authority, so you can consider it non authoritative, just my opinion.

What do i know and what do i think?

Well looking at the United Engine corporation and Salyut and Saturn pages, i see Al-31F-M2/M3 are not in production, Salyut only has the Al-31F-M1 as in production and Al-31FN, thus i think is unlikely J-20 flies with Al-31F-M2/M3 engines, why? first these engines were intended for PAKFA, but by losing the competition 117 was chosen for production for Su-35 if we believe the United Engine corporation webpage.
M2 and M3 are supposedly 14,5 and 15.3 thrust tonnes engines.

What engine is used for PAKFA? that is classified but they think it is a variant of 117S.

Al-31FN series 3 could be used but it will mean all the engines will have the gear box bellow the engines, that will imply the Chinese will either need to re-modify to fit another engine with the gear box above the engine, that is highly unlikely so all engines will need a bellow gear box.


Since they want to buy Su-35 my opinion is they want 117S, why? first is production, 117S is in large scale production thus it is cheaper to make than engines that are not, M2/M3 are not in production if they were to be gotten by the Chinese, these engines would be quiet expensive and very likely Russia would demand a large quantity, very likely 200-500 engines to justify the production and investment.


Any engine to justify its production will demand large numbers, Russia will not sell even 117 without Su-35 unless China pays for the R&D costs, so they want to sell Su-35s with spare engines, the spare engines are not free, they get 4 engines for Su-35 but they are charged, a pair fitted in the aircraft and a pair as spare.

So, Al-31F-M2 in my opinion is out of the question, is not charity too, Salyut will not open a production line for 30 or 40 engines, and if they do each engine will be charge its weight in gold, it is like a car, a handmade car is more expensive than one built in series like a volkswagen Beetle.

So in my opinion either it uses regular Al-31Fs or a Chinese engine like WS-10, but it seems WS-10 is not the engine, so i think they are using Al-31Fs
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Does this clarify the debate;

Russia discloses that they had reached a contract with PRC in sales total of 100 AL-31 and D-30 engines.

This is a Japanese translation from 中国紙・参考消息(電子版).

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Blackstone

Brigadier
LOL. I guess he somehow assumes that there is a perennial, on-going debate about whether PRC engine sucks. Any news of engine sales from Russia or elsewhere is proof-positive that PRC engine sucks.
There's no real debate; PRC engines aren't ready for prime time. The fails after fails are reasons for continued Russian engine purchases, with no end in sight.
 

Blitzo

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There's no real debate; PRC engines aren't ready for prime time.

Unfortunately that's not a question of much substance, and it also isn't a debate that I think many of our more informed members here would bother arguing for, because like you said it isn't a matter of debate.

If Samuraiblue thinks that what you described is a a subject of "debate" then I think that reveals more about his lack of knowledge of what the current Chinese military watching landscape is like in regards to engines, and very little about what is actually being discussed most of the time.



Instead, the the debates and questions which are constantly occurring are more about what the stage of development and latest progress on engines are.... and in that regard, the purchase of Russian engines tell us very little to nothing.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
however there is a small problem, if you go to the salyut page you will find they only have as products in the Russian version Al-31F-M1 and Al-31FN. there is no entry in Salyuts page where they say M2/M3 are in production...

If the rumours of high-level Chinese delegations visiting and big investments in Salyut are true, then the engines are custom jobs designed with Chinese money.

In which case, it would not be unusual for China to demand and get partial rights to the design such that it could not be sold to anyone else without explicit Chinese approval; and/or make Salyut sign NDRs about the whole thing.

If that was the case, then it would make perfect sense for those engines not to be listed on the company web pages.
 
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