Aircraft Carriers III

TheNavigator said:

Charles de Gaulle with all 24 Rafale on deck
View attachment 37327

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24 Rafale, 2 E-2Cs and two helos.

Nice to see...and a very potent "punch" for its air wing.

Although the QE class will be able to carry more aircraft, and I believe an F-35B superior to the Rafale...the Royal Navy will not have the E-2C type AEW aircraft and they will therefore, IMHO, be more vulnerable to an enemy than the Charles de Gualle.

JUst the same, all in all, they will be on par with one another.

What is needed is a AEW Osprey, which can carry a more powerful radar than the helos, can get it up higher, and therefore provide better warning and electronic capabilities for the STOVL carriers...including the US Navy Wasp and America classes.

Imagine the US with 11 nuclear carriers and all of those stealth F-35Cs and incorporating Advanced Super Hrnets, and then imagine the US being able to turn any of its ten large deck Wasp or America class into carriers with 2- F-35Bs and a strong AEW capability. Add the French carrier to that and the two Royal Navy carriers and you end up with as many as 18 carriers with large, powerful airwings.

But then, with an Osprey AEW capability and a Opsrey ASW capability, then imagine adding F-35s to these classes that could do the same:

Cavour x 1
Giuseppe Garbaldi x 1
Juan Carlos x 1
Mistrals x 3
Gamal Nasser x 2
Canberra x 2
Izumo x 2
Hyuga x 2
Dokdo x 2

That's another 16 carrier right there...all of them capable of carrying fifth generation stealth aircraft to sea.

The next everal years are going to be intereting times for naval aviation.

Jeff Head said:

24 Rafale, 2 E-2Cs and two helos.

Nice to see...and a very potent "punch" for its air wing.

Although the QE class will be able to carry more aircraft, and I believe an F-35B superior to the Rafale...the Royal Navy will not have the E-2C type AEW aircraft and they will therefore, IMHO, be more vulnerable to an enemy than the Charles de Gualle.

JUst the same, all in all, they will be on par with one another.

What is needed is a AEW Osprey, which can carry a more powerful radar than the helos, can get it up higher, and therefore provide better warning and electronic capabilities for the STOVL carriers...including the US Navy Wasp and America classes.

Imagine the US with 11 nuclear carriers and all of those stealth F-35Cs and incorporating Advanced Super Hrnets, and then imagine the US being able to turn any of its ten large deck Wasp or America class into carriers with 2- F-35Bs and a strong AEW capability. Add the French carrier to that and the two Royal Navy carriers and you end up with as many as 18 carriers with large, powerful airwings.

But then, with an Osprey AEW capability and a Opsrey ASW capability, then imagine adding F-35s to these classes that could do the same:
.

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'Cough' CROWSNEST 'Cough' MERLIN HM2 AEW.... The QECs will deploy with 9 Merlin HM2s configured for ASW (currently one of the world's best shipborne ASW Helicopters) and up to another five HM2s fitted for the AEW role. Seachwater 2000 Radar and the Cerberus system may not be as capable as the E-2D but they are formidable in their own right, and as we'll have five aboard ship against the French Navy's two Hawkeyes, there will be greater availability overall.

Putting these systems on Osprey would be a great move, but alas the political will to spend the money just isn't there. Maybe in the 2020s when the QECs are fully in service and have had a chance to prove themselves things might change...

Obi Wan Russell said:

'Cough' CROWSNEST 'Cough' MERLIN HM2 AEW....View attachment 37331 The QECs will deploy with 9 Merlin HM2s configured for ASW (currently one of the world's best shipborne ASW Helicopters) and up to another five HM2s fitted for the AEW role. Seachwater 2000 Radar and the Cerberus system may not be as capable as the E-2D but they are formidable in their own right, and as we'll have five aboard ship against the French Navy's two Hawkeyes, there will be greater availability overall.

Putting these systems on Osprey would be a great move, but alas the political will to spend the money just isn't there. Maybe in the 2020s when the QECs are fully in service and have had a chance to prove themselves things might change...

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Yep, and that big radome would have to have a dedicated hard point or some similar, I don't think it woud fit under the belly, they might however install a dedicated sponson? El Jeffy is right, the F-35B brings an incredible amount of flexibility into an ever more beautiful picture!

Air Force Brat said:

Yep, and that big radome would have to have a dedicated hard point or some similar, I don't think it woud fit under the belly, they might however install a dedicated sponson? El Jeffy is right, the F-35B brings an incredible amount of flexibility into an ever more beautiful picture!

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I should also point out the Searchwater 2000 radar and Cerberus system as installed in the Sea King ASaC 7s did a sterling job in Afghanistan hunting for the Taliban on land...

All 30 Merlin HM2s will be fitted to take the AEW system if required, so the airframes can be rotated through the roles as required. I'd rather have dedicated airframes for the task (and we have enough held in storage) but something is always better than nothing.

Obi Wan Russell said:

...

Putting these systems on Osprey would be a great move, but alas the political will to spend the money just isn't there. Maybe in the 2020s when the QECs are fully in service and have had a chance to prove themselves things might change...

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... Answer first: "The V-22 Osprey is not part of the resourced plan to deliver the UK Carrier Strike capability. However, the Ministry of Defence will continue to explore a variety of options to augment the capabilities of the Queen Elizabeth Class carriers in future."

Question was: "To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to purchasing V-22 Ospreys for use by the special forces."

Military Aircraft: Procurement:Written question - HL6058

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Jura said:

... Answer first: "The V-22 Osprey is not part of the resourced plan to deliver the UK Carrier Strike capability. However, the Ministry of Defence will continue to explore a variety of options to augment the capabilities of the Queen Elizabeth Class carriers in future."

Question was: "To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to purchasing V-22 Ospreys for use by the special forces."

Military Aircraft: Procurement:Written question - HL6058

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Which is the official way of saying 'it's not something we can afford at the moment but if the money becomes available things may change...'

In the meantime, as already reported the RN will effectively 'borrow' Ospreys and Lightnings from the USMC for the next few years to fill the decks of the carriers. Once the capability has been demonstrated in service, it may well be possible to make a case for the purchase of these aircraft.

As time goes buy and I learn more and more about the F35's sensors to some degree I begine to wonder if naval AEW's will still be needed to the same degree.

Obi Wan Russell said:

'Cough' CROWSNEST 'Cough' MERLIN HM2 AEW....View attachment 37331 The QECs will deploy with 9 Merlin HM2s configured for ASW (currently one of the world's best shipborne ASW Helicopters) and up to another five HM2s fitted for the AEW role. Seachwater 2000 Radar and the Cerberus system may not be as capable as the E-2D but they are formidable in their own right, and as we'll have five aboard ship against the French Navy's two Hawkeyes, there will be greater availability overall.

Putting these systems on Osprey would be a great move, but alas the political will to spend the money just isn't there. Maybe in the 2020s when the QECs are fully in service and have had a chance to prove themselves things might change...

Click to expand...

@Air Force Brat
There is njo doubt in my mind that the Crows nest, mounted on the Merlin, will be as absolutely good as a Helo AEW capability can get.

I still believe they can mount more electroincs and a stronger capability on an Osprey, presuurize it and have t go higher than the Merlin.

But, that is just my opinion...but one based he service ceiling being 15,000 ft for a Merlin, and 25,000 feet for the Osprey, and based on the weight each can carry, I believe strongly that an Osprey AEW aircraft would be a stronger choice.

But there isn't one...and the decision is made and there will be a Merlin AEW HM2.

And Lockheed is the prime for the bringing together of the radar/electronics for the HMs and they most definitely will produce a very strong capability.

" Lockheed Martin as Prime Contractor, is responsible for the overall design and development of the CROWSNEST system, which incorporates an improved version of the existing Thales Searchwater radar and Cerberus Mission System onto the Merlin HM Mk2 helicopter fleet, producing ten role fit kits and full fleet modification to ensure that this key Royal Navy capability is delivered. CROWSNEST will be integrated onto the existing Mk2 Merlin platform ensuring the current capability is maintained."

Just the same, it is always better to get that, or ne that s as good or better up 10,000 feet higher. And the Opsrey would provide that or more...because if the US developed it for their LHDs and LHAs, I be dollars to doughnuts you'd see it with a 30,000+ foot ceiling.

The ceiling for the Hawkeye is listed as 35,000 ft, but I have it on good authority that they can and do get up to 40,000 feet.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

As time goes buy and I learn more and more about the F35's sensors to some degree I begine to wonder if naval AEW's will still be needed to the same degree.

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Yes...they will.

F-35s are amazing at sensor fusion, meaning they can pull in everything available. Sat, P-8s, other strike and recon aircraft (think Global Hawk and Triton. But those all have their own capability in terms of seeing things and finding things.

nothing equals the power and versatility at sea of the E-2D HAwkeye. The E-3s do over land...but they are not at sea.

So the F-35C (and B and A) can pull that info into their full sensor suite and make it all available to the pilot and their controllers.

But the power of those AEW aircraft is something the F-35 cannot generate itself. So, the US Navy will ontinue with the E-2D and that package coupled with the P-8s and Triton an F-35 may also hook into will make it awesome in terms of having unparalled info available to each aircraft.

Off of the LHDs and LHAs there is nothing like a HAwkeye. HAving an Operey AEW that has something like 75% of a HAwkeye capability sitting at 30,000 feet either near, or ouut on a threat axis from the formation will make a HUGE differnece to what those F-35Bs woud have available to them as well as what the ships in the formation have available for defense.

Another key point to remember about AEW aircraft and the F-35 is that the enemy will be able to detect the emissions from the AEW Radar, but cannot do anything about it as the aircraft will be beyond their reach. Meanwhile the Lightnings will be able to utilise all the information from that AEW Bird without emitting anything themselves, remaining unseen b the enemy. The F-35s radar is very impressive, but why tell the enemy where you are if you don't have to?

In a similar vein, one of the benefits of carrier's having AEW is they can remain in EMCON and rely on the 'eye in the sky' to provide them with a full radar picture of the combat zone whilst keeping themselves safely silent. The enemy will already have worked out there is a carrier group somewhere out there, and they will know there is an AEW aircraft watching them, but beyond that they will not have a fix on the carrier group's location nearer than a few hundred miles, and for targeting purposes that just isn't anywhere near good enough. The Argentines knew our carriers where somewhere to the east of the Falklands in 1982, but never successfully found the carriers themselves. And we were lacking AEW at the time!