Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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bd popeye

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I wouldn't worry about it. Those MiG-29K's will probably find themselves a good home, on a reasonably good flight deck, just not on Kitty Hawk (besides, if a former USN fleet carrier were ever to grace the IN:eek:, well JFK is still sitting at Philly, and she's newer and in a lot better shape - not that that's likely to happen), but who knows these days?;) The US is trying to court new allies to face new foes.:coffee:

Actually the JFK never made it to Philly(Philadelphia PA)..The area where they want to store the JFK needs to be dredged. Presently the JFK is in Norfolk VA with other inactive ships.

The US courting new friends? Gee what a shock!:D
 

Norfolk

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Actually the JFK never made it to Philly(Philadelphia PA)..The area where they want to store the JFK needs to be dredged. Presently the JFK is in Norfolk VA with other inactive ships.

The US courting new friends? Gee what a shock!:D

I hope JFK is right at Norfolk, and not sitting out in the James with that collection of hulks the Navy calls the "James River NRF":mad:. What a sad way for the JFK to go if that's the case. She's still got a few years of service life in her, let someone (worthy) use it - or turn her into a museum ship right away (not that there aren't enough as is).

Besides, if Varyag were to appear in active PLAN service within the next two or three years, someone in Washington and someone in New Delhi just might get the same idea, and just might get together macht schnell :nono:eek:ver Scotch and curry, and cut a deal with a grey lady in mind.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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The main practicle obstacle to transferring a US CV to a friendly nation such as India is the running cost, primarily manpower. Most nations who can field a carrier can afford to run one with a crew of about a thousand plus the air group, whereas to operate something like JFK or Kitty Hawk would five thousand plus unless the ship was to be run on a skeleton crew (eg not enough to cope with battle damage). A small air wing could be operated well below the ships capacity (ie up to forty aircraft and helos) and at least there woulld be room for all in the hangar, but any pre transfer refit would have to include a significant dgree of automation (pimarily in the engine room) to reduce the numbers required to crew the ship, say down to about 2000. This is on top of the equivalent of a SLEP refit prior to transfer to replace everything that is worn out (wiring, piping, just about anything that moves. Hulls tend to retain their structural integrity for a lot longer than the equipment within) as the IN is dicovering with the Gorshkov. The two US CVs mentioned would because of their sheer size be just as expensive to refit and transfer if not more so, and we haven't even gotten to the air wing yet. The Mig 29Ks are a done deal, and while they would have no problem landing on a large CV, they are not designed for catapult launching, so either they would have to be seriously redesigned and/or rebuilt, different aircraft would have to aquired (F/A 18 or Rafale?) or the IN would have to remain on the STOVL road (Harriers can fly from anything with a flat dec, they aren't fussy) which would inevitably lead to closer links to the US in order to get the F-35B (desirable, but politically difficult given India's intention to remain equidistant between the US and Russia). Given the alternatives, it is hardly surprising they took the course they did, though perhaps they shoudn't have taken the so much on trust from the Russian shipyard...

The same problems arise when considering other nations who might be in the market for a carrier (eg Brazil, Argentina, UK, France etc) inasmuch as the running costs compare to a new design are just too high to make it viable. In Britain, the Invincibles are run with a crew of just 685 plus air group, and to jump to a ship with a crew of five thousand is just not feasible.
 

bd popeye

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I hope JFK is right at Norfolk, and not sitting out in the James with that collection of hulks the Navy calls the "James River NRF

Sorry to say it is my understanding that is where the old girl is.:mad:..Hopefully soon she will be moved to Philly.
 

harryRIEDL

New Member
The main practicle obstacle to transferring a US CV to a friendly nation such as India is the running cost, primarily manpower. Most nations who can field a carrier can afford to run one with a crew of about a thousand plus the air group, whereas to operate something like JFK or Kitty Hawk would five thousand plus unless the ship was to be run on a skeleton crew (eg not enough to cope with battle damage). A small air wing could be operated well below the ships capacity (ie up to forty aircraft and helos) and at least there woulld be room for all in the hangar, but any pre transfer refit would have to include a significant dgree of automation (pimarily in the engine room) to reduce the numbers required to crew the ship, say down to about 2000. This is on top of the equivalent of a SLEP refit prior to transfer to replace everything that is worn out (wiring, piping, just about anything that moves. Hulls tend to retain their structural integrity for a lot longer than the equipment within) as the IN is dicovering with the Gorshkov. The two US CVs mentioned would because of their sheer size be just as expensive to refit and transfer if not more so, and we haven't even gotten to the air wing yet. The Mig 29Ks are a done deal, and while they would have no problem landing on a large CV, they are not designed for catapult launching, so either they would have to be seriously redesigned and/or rebuilt, different aircraft would have to aquired (F/A 18 or Rafale?) or the IN would have to remain on the STOVL road (Harriers can fly from anything with a flat dec, they aren't fussy) which would inevitably lead to closer links to the US in order to get the F-35B (desirable, but politically difficult given India's intention to remain equidistant between the US and Russia). Given the alternatives, it is hardly surprising they took the course they did, though perhaps they shoudn't have taken the so much on trust from the Russian shipyard...

The same problems arise when considering other nations who might be in the market for a carrier (eg Brazil, Argentina, UK, France etc) inasmuch as the running costs compare to a new design are just too high to make it viable. In Britain, the Invincibles are run with a crew of just 685 plus air group, and to jump to a ship with a crew of five thousand is just not feasible.
couldn't the MIG29K fly off the angled deck and strip off the Cats
the personal problems shouldn't be as difficult as the Euro navies so theoretically the IN navy should be able to operate it with a full complement
 

Obi Wan Russell

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couldn't the MIG29K fly off the angled deck and strip off the Cats
the personal problems shouldn't be as difficult as the Euro navies so theoretically the IN navy should be able to operate it with a full complement

Yes the Migs could be flown from the deck without cats, You could even build a ski jump on the foredeck if necessary, but then you are throwing away one of the key selling points of the large CV, ie the cats! They give the option of deploying a wide range of aircraft from the deck, not just the strike fighters that most think of. Fixed wing AEW and ASW as well as COD and tanker aircraft become a possibility with a large deck CTOL carrier, vastly improving the reach of the ship compared to the STOBAR option currently being pursued.

Even with the lower costs of manpower in India compared to the west, finding 6000 for the crew compared to 1000 for the ships planned is a large jump. Current plans are for an eventual total of three ships (Gorshkov and at least two IACs) which together would require less personnel than a single US CV, so the economics begin to bite even for the IN. One carrier can only be in one place at a time, and when it is in dry dock it cannot be generated for combat at short notice as the IN found out in the mid sixties.
 

IDonT

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A hint of just how rigorous the US carrier ops are compared to other nations.

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The US Marine Corps pilots are as gung-ho as Hollywood would have you believe. Illustrious's deck crews and traffic controllers had sweated over 76 landings and take-offs in one day; a number that was not exceeded even when sister ship HMS Invincible went to war in the Falklands.

Yes the Migs could be flown from the deck without cats, You could even build a ski jump on the foredeck if necessary, but then you are throwing away one of the key selling points of the large CV, ie the cats! They give the option of deploying a wide range of aircraft from the deck, not just the strike fighters that most think of. Fixed wing AEW and ASW as well as COD and tanker aircraft become a possibility with a large deck CTOL carrier, vastly improving the reach of the ship compared to the STOBAR option currently being pursued.

In addition, ski ramp take off really lowers the maximum amount of takeoff weight of the MIG 29K. No big deal if the IN tends to use its airwing for purely airdefence role with its low weight ordinance. Strike operations, on the other hand, require heavier ordinace.
 

bd popeye

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The US Marine Corps pilots are as gung-ho as Hollywood would have you believe. Illustrious's deck crews and traffic controllers had sweated over 76 landings and take-offs in one day; a number that was not exceeded even when sister ship HMS Invincible went to war in the Falklands.

That makes me smile..A few years ago the RU Cv the ADM. "K" went to sea for two weeks. The article I read abot the short deployment said that the ship planned to have at least 40 take offs and landings in that time...I saw that and burst out laughing. On a USN CV there are 40 take offs and landings before noon...

USN CV's have always had an hi tempo of operations.
 

harryRIEDL

New Member
CV São Paulo concludes maintenance period
the Brazilians carrier has come out of manitance
83931469lg9.jpg


37923496eg0.jpg
 
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bd popeye

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Gents please do not "Hot Link" your photos. It eats up bandwidth and many times they won't show up. Down load the pictures to your hard drive and them upload them using a photo hosting site. Or post them as thumbnails.

bd popeye super moderator
 
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