harryRIEDL
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Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)
- Thread starter Jeff Head
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Neutral Zone
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Any idea how much longer the Brazilian Navy can keep Sao Paulo and the A-4's in service for? Assuming they feel it's worthwhile to go for a replacement then what would be ideal for their needs, one of the Invincibles or a new build carrier from a European yard?
harryRIEDL
New Member
i don't know about new builds or buying a ship from a Euro yard but i guess their use it till it falls apart they don't use much and its shakedown cruise its only carrying turbo Trackers and San Paulo isn't used much certainly compared to other nations. its only 40 years old i Imagen it could still have another 10 years of life in her
Sao Paolo's predecessor lasted 60 years in service and I'd imagine the Brazillians would want to get their money's worth (ie at least 20 years) out of her. Keeping the sea time down will certainly cut down on the wear and tear but will also mean less opportunity to train and remain proficient, a case of use it or lose it. If they go down the new build road then they will need another ten to fifteen years to bring a new ship into service (five years to build it, ten years for the arguments!) and the most likely option would seem to be a variant of the Indian Navy's IAC, simply on cost grounds, as building a carrier in a european yard will be far beyond Brazil's means. They may launch a joint program with Argentina to reduce development costs and go for a new hull with minimal radar and defensive systems to keep it affordable (such a ship could be built relatively cheaply if fitted for the first few years with radars and weapons salvaged from recently decommissioned ships, then upgraded later. At least the second hand 'kit' will be already paid for) so in this scenario expect a couple of 40,000ton ships to be ordered about a decade from now either from India or possibly South Korea (at least they would be delivered on time if not early!) which would then have their 'kit' installed after delivery to their owners. Just a thought...
Interesting, so you believe the CVF design is exportable. Currently, only the Principe de Asturias has been exported. So by 2030 time frame there will be a proliferation of aircraft carriers.
Argentina uses the Brazilian carrier to qualify her Super Etendard pilots for carrier opps. It is not entirely out of the question of the Sao Paulo to sortie with a combined Brazilian/Argentinian airwing.
Don't recall mentioning CVF, though I believe if the right country with the right budget came along, well after all we let the French in so who knows? But seriously, the design may be exportable for Brazil, but I seriously doubt they could afford to have it built in a European yard. India or South Korea on the other hand, well they could build a hull for a reasonable price minus any radars (other than navigational) and weapons which as I said could be installed after delivery to keep costs down. As to which design would be used, a CVF variant is a possibility, or the IAC, or a Spanish SCS variant (they have already tried to sell a CTOL 30,000+ton variant) or something new tailored for the customer. If they just want a ship that can operate aircraft then that isn't hard to achieve. If they want one with the best defences and facilities, then that will ne expensive, whoever builds it.
harryRIEDL
New Member
the Braziliens air crew don't have much time at sea anyway 4 skyhawk flyable[the rest are in storage] 4 pilots carrier trained [traps ect] San paolo many look nice but it was in a very grotty state before refithttp://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-71186.html
the Brazilians in my opinion it isn't worth them contuing with CTOL after San Paolo their best of with a LPH which can act as an aircraft carrier a BPE like ship. big diesels 22 knots under 300million which will be cheaper than an vaporwere IAC. it doesn't need to be a Euro yard [they have the best experience's after the US so less teething trouble] it would be much better if they use old harriers of F35's if their willing to spend on defense
The Brazillians have just bought 5 S-2Es for conversion to S-2T Turbo Tracker standard to add to Sao Paolo's air group and after spending two years and a lot of cash refitting the ship (including refurbishing her waist catapult to the point that it is now 'zero houred') they aren't going to leave the skyhawks in storage for long. expect them to be returned to flight status soon along with a cadre of pilots trained back up to standard by next spring. This ship isn't leaving service anytime soon, simply as a matter of national pride. The reduction in pilot numbers and serviceable aircraft was a sensible measure to preserve flying hours in the airframes while the ship was in a long refit, and the ship/aircraft combination will likely be around until at least the end of the next decade, by which time F-35s may be available and affordable as replacements for the Skyhawks, Harriers will be unlikely as they will all be close to maximum fatigue life by then (both British and American examples) so if the STOVL path is chosen then the Lightning will be the only game in town. If they remain wedded to CTOL then a ship of the size of CdG will be the minimum useful size and the most likely aircraft will be either second hand F-18s, Rafales, Mig 29s or the Indian Light Combat aircraft. I agree about India's shipyards having a less than desirable track record so my money would be on a hull being built by the South Koreans whose track record is much better in the field of completing warships for overseas customers at a reasonable price.
On a side issue, does anyone have any info on what finally happened to Clemenceau? haven't heard anything for a while and the last reports were a bit contradictory. Is she still sitting in a french port or on the beach at Alang?
On a side issue, does anyone have any info on what finally happened to Clemenceau? haven't heard anything for a while and the last reports were a bit contradictory. Is she still sitting in a french port or on the beach at Alang?
harryRIEDL
New Member
in regards to the F18's by the time they wan't to replace the skyhawks the F18 will have gone the way of the harrier the F18 are in as bad a state as the AV-8 and both are in need of replacement their will be no used market for F18 when Brazil wan'ts them.
the Mig will likely still be around but would not make much sence in 2020+
the Raf will be winding down production [unless their are any exports]
and i know nuthing about the LCA.
the SK have a good record on ship building but i wouldn't whant something that big and ambiesious to be done in SK [they have only just built a 20K LHD i wouldn't whant them to build a proper carrier with out something of similar complesitiy in servise in the SK navy too much can go wrong]
it makes sences storing aircraft but CTOL skills are very pershable and their skyhawks arn't any great shakes [i haven't seen any brazilien carrier ops ever?]
the trakers are good buy now all they need to do is convert 1-3 to AEW
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