Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Gents let's can the politics. Thank you.

It was maintenance heavy (did you work on any of these Popeye, or were there any of the recon versions still on the ships when you started service?), but it was a Mig/enemy killer at the time, and good at it, and it brought several innovations.

When I was aboard the USS Hancock (CVA-19) in '74 & '75 we had Crusaders. VF-24 & VF-211. the '75 WESTPAC was the last deployment before those squadrons transitioned to Tomcats.

A couple of slide shows aboard the Fightin' Hanna before my time.

[video=youtube;xh-GhJFwuxs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh-GhJFwuxs[/video]

[video=youtube;URaw5KfFaVI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URaw5KfFaVI[/video]
 

navyreco

Senior Member
The fact that the French continued to improve and use the fighter for decades after it left US service is a testament to its design and longevity (and I am proud to becaue my Dad was the chief dynamics engineer for that aircraft)

Then you can probably enlighten me on something I've been wondering for a while:

(I hope BD is ok with this slight and short OT)

What's up with the wings on the F8 ? The entire wing section can tilt. Why ? Does it help improve lift during take off ? And act as Airbrake during landing ?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Then you can probably enlighten me on something I've been wondering for a while:

What's up with the wings on the F8 ? The entire wing section can tilt. Why ? Does it help improve lift during take off ? And act as Airbrake during landing ?
That method of moving the wing up and down was called the "variable-incidence wing," and allowed the wing to pivot up and down vertically by up to 7° on takeoff and landing. What this did for you was to increase the aircraft's angle of attack...and it did so without causing any loss of visibility, because the fuselage remained level. The increased angle of attack resulted in greater lift while taking off and landing. Gave a pilot some flexibility with respect to air speed, angle of attack, and options while landing and taking off.


When I was aboard the USS Hancock (CVA-19) in '74 & '75 we had Crusaders. VF-24 & VF-211. the '75 WESTPAC was the last deployment before those squadrons transitioned to Tomcats.

[video=youtube;URaw5KfFaVI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URaw5KfFaVI[/video]
As is said in the new kid's movie, Croods...

"I LOVE IT!"

Here's some tidbits of info about the Crusader:

The first F-8 crusaders went into service in 1957. The last active duty F-8E Crusaders were retired from VF-191 and VF-194 aboard USS Oriskany in 1976 after 19 years of service as a front line fighter for the US NAvy, which set a first in terms of longevity to that time for a US Navy fighter.

The US photo reconnaissance variant continued to serve 11 more years, until 1987, with VFP-63, flying RF-8Gs and with the Naval Reserve flying their RF-8s with VFP-306 until 1984 and with VFP-206 until 29 March 1987 when the last operational Crusader was taken out of service by the US. That's 30 years of active duty in the US Military for the aircraft.

The F-8 Crusader is the only aircraft to have used the AIM-9C Sidewinder which was the only radar-guided version of the Sidewinder (which most people are not aware that there even was a radar-guided version of the Sidewinder). When the Crusader retired from US Navy fighter service in 1976, these missiles were converted to the AGM-122 Sidearm anti-radiation missiles that were then used by United States Army attack helicopters to target and destroy enemy radar systems.

But, with its retirement in 1987 from the US, the Crusader's service life was not done yet, and extended on another 13 years.

IN 1964-1965, the French acquired 42 aircraft (the final F-8s produced) for stationing on their two aircraft carriers, the Clemceau and Foch.

The French Navy continuously used and upgraded them from 1964 to the year 2000 as a fighter aircraft off of those carriers. When they were finally taken out of service, they had served the French Navy for 36 years, and a total service life of 43 years! This is, to this day, the longest service life for any naval fighter aircraft in history.

By comparison, the first F-18 Hornet (and we are not including the Superhornet here, which are new build aircraft) went into service in 1983 and has served a LONG time. They have just reached the 30 year mark this year in US Navy service, which makes them the longest serving US Navy fighter aircraft in history. But, in terms of world-wide use, the F-18s need to serve another 14 years to beat the Crusader...which is not going to happen for the US version, but may happen for either the Australian birds (which are now planned to be taken out of service in 2020) or the Finnish or Spanish aircraft which are planned to serve until 2025. If the do, and if they extend much beyond that, the F-18 may take the F-8s place as the longest serving, world-wide, naval fighter aircraft in history.
 
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delft

Brigadier
That method of moving the wing up and down was called the "variable-incidence wing," and allowed the wing to pivot up and down vertically by up to 7° on takeoff and landing. What this did for you was to increase the aircraft's angle of attack...and it did so without causing any loss of visibility, because the fuselage remained level. The increased angle of attack resulted in greater lift while taking off and landing. Gave a pilot some flexibility with respect to air speed, angle of attack, and options while landing and taking off.


As is said in the new kid's movie, Croods...

"I LOVE IT!"

Here's some tidbits of info about the Crusader:

The first F-8 crusaders went into service in 1957. The last active duty F-8E Crusaders were retired from VF-191 and VF-194 aboard USS Oriskany in 1976 after 19 years of service as a front line fighter for the US NAvy, which set a first in terms of longevity to that time for a US Navy fighter.

The US photo reconnaissance variant continued to serve 11 more years, until 1987, with VFP-63, flying RF-8Gs and with the Naval Reserve flying their RF-8s with VFP-306 until 1984 and with VFP-206 until 29 March 1987 when the last operational Crusader was taken out of service by the US. That's 30 years of active duty in the US Military for the aircraft.

The F-8 Crusader is the only aircraft to have used the AIM-9C Sidewinder which was the only radar-guided version of the Sidewinder (which most people are not aware that there even was a radar-guided version of the Sidewinder). When the Crusader retired from US Navy fighter service in 1976, these missiles were converted to the AGM-122 Sidearm anti-radiation missiles that were then used by United States Army attack helicopters to target and destroy enemy radar systems.

But, with its retirement in 1987 from the US, the Crusader's service life was not done yet, and extended on another 13 years.

IN 1964-1965, the French acquired 42 aircraft (the final F-8s produced) for stationing on their two aircraft carriers, the Clemceau and Foch.

The French Navy continuously used and upgraded them from 1964 to the year 2000 as a fighter aircraft off of those carriers. When they were finally taken out of service, they had served the French Navy for 36 years, and a total service life of 43 years! This is, to this day, the longest service life for any naval fighter aircraft in history.

By comparison, the first F-18 Hornet (and we are not including the Superhornet here, which are new build aircraft) went into service in 1983 and has served a LONG time. They have just reached the 30 year mark this year in US Navy service, which makes them the longest serving US Navy fighter aircraft in history. But, in terms of world-wide use, the F-18s need to serve another 14 years to beat the Crusader...which is not going to happen for the US version, but may happen for either the Australian birds (which are now planned to be taken out of service in 2020) or the Finnish or Spanish aircraft which are planned to serve until 2025. If the do, and if they extend much beyond that, the F-18 may take the F-8s place as the longest serving, world-wide, naval fighter aircraft in history.
Variable incidence wings are used too little IMO. You need large bearings of course, which need maintenance, but that was no problem ( ? ) when everyone wanted swing wing aircraft where the bearings are placed much more inconveniently. One of the most interesting was the Blohm&Voss Bv 144 (
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) built in France to a German design at the end of WWII and meant to replace the Ju 52/3m in air line service. It flew just after the Germans left in August 1944 but couldn't compete with second hand Dakota's so was not put into production.
Didn't Crusader have an auxiliary air intake to the engine opened by increasing the wing incidence? It was really a very good looking aircraft.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Variable incidence wings are used too little IMO.
It was a good innovation for the Crusader. The F-8 was a hot, fast bird, and that allowed it to land at a much slower rate of speed, and shorter disance...even on the carrier...and also allowed it to get by with a smaller landing gear since that gear did not have to stand the aircraft higher up by the nose to impart the angle of attack necessary.

Later aircraft (like the Hornet) did not require these innovations.

Didn't Crusader have an auxiliary air intake to the engine opened by increasing the wing incidence? It was really a very good looking aircraft.
I do not think so...but I am also not sure. I have never heard of one there, or seen mention of it.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Old Footage of Clemenceau CV... pretty nice vid (except for the music I guess... it sure contributes to the vintage feel)
[video=youtube;GmDlmVMCJkY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmDlmVMCJkY[/video]

The "Pacha" (CO) smoking at 1:15... I doubt this is allowed nowadays...even for the CO
And those F8 were smoking a lot too :)

Love the video and the music is awesome, it is in fact real music, though not my brand, I'm sure it inspires those who were its intended audience, and the vintage aircraft carrier ops point the way for the Liaoning! Brat
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Love the video and the music is awesome, it is in fact real music, though not my brand, I'm sure it inspires those who were its intended audience, and the vintage aircraft carrier ops point the way for the Liaoning! Brat
Seeing those Etenards brings back memories. They served with the French from 1962 to 1991, and were ultimately all replaced by Super Etenards, which went active first in 1979, and are still serving today.

They will be all replaced by 2015 with Rafaels. But by that time, they will have served on board three diferent French carriers for 36 years. Quite a distinguished service history.

And we know those Super Etenards loaded with Exocets are effective at-sea strike aircraft...just ask HMS Sheffiled, and the Atlantic Converyor.

Speaking of that, in each case it is till amazing to me that both ships sank from a single Exocet hit. The USS Stark, a smaller US Frigate (USS Stark displaced 4,100 tons, HMS Sheffield displaced 4,820 tons, and Atlantic Converyor displaced 14,500 tons), was hit in 1987 by two Exocet missiles, and due to the quick thinking of her captain (flooding her opposit side, causing her to list and keep the missile blast hole above the waterline) and the unbelievable damage control, she remained afloat and made way under her own steam back to port for repairs.
 
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navyreco

Senior Member
Speaking of that, in each case it is till amazing to me that both ships sank from a single Exocet hit. The USS Stark, a smaller US Frigate (USS Stark displaced 4,100 tons, HMS Sheffield displaced 4,820 tons, and Atlantic Converyor displaced 14,500 tons), was hit in 1987 by two Exocet missiles, and due to the quick thinking of her captain (flooding her opposit side, causing her to list and keep the missile blast hole above the waterline) and the unbelievable damage control, she remained afloat and made way under her own steam back to port for repairs.

Not to downplay the professionalism of her Captain and Crew, I heard on several occasion (from people who served in the navy) a big factor was sea state too. Persian Gulf waters are a lake compared to the Atlantic Ocean.
 

navyreco

Senior Member
2x F-8E(FN) onboard USS Shangri La
YBtnQjM.jpg


Faced with the urgent need to retire the venerable Aquilons, its only fleet air defence fighters, the French Navy issued an invitation to tender. The French manufacturer Dassault was not part of it because its navalized version of the Mirage, still on the drawing board, had a high approach speed. The French Navy then naturally turned towards the USA which was operating the F-8 Crusader and the F-4 Phantom II.

CC Hurel from the BET (Technical Studies Bureau), Mr.Faucheux from the Aeronautical Techniques Service and a engineer were rushed across the Atlantic to decide which one of the two planes would be the most suitable to defend the new Foch and the Clemenceau aircraft-carriers. The Phantom II turned out to be oversized for the small carriers, and the Crusader was chosen. An evaluation campaign was then performed aboard the Clemenceau on March 16th 1962 by two VF-32 F-8s from the carrier USS Saratoga. The Ling-Temco-Vought (LTV) manufacturer offered to build an all weather interceptor based on the F-8U-2NE (F-8E), but with an improoved system of flaps and the capability to fire the MATRA R530 air to air missile. This version is dubbed F-8E(FN). The $65 million AM-114-104 contract is for a first batch of 40 single seaters and 6 two seaters, as well as a large supply of spare parts and engines.


Unfortunately Congress cancelled the Twosader (two seat Crusader), and the French Navy changed its order to 42 single seaters (BuAer 151732 to 151773). Four pilots (LV Goupil, LV de la Fournière, EV Robillard and OE Philippe) were sent to the USA and transitioned to the Crusader with VF-174 Hell's Razors at Cecil Field (Fl); the first French pilot soloed May 6th 1963. The F-8U-2NE (BuAer 147036, a transformed F-8D) prototype made its first flight on February 27th 1964. It had a entirely new wing, a special auto throttle for carrier approaches, a stall warning, wiring for the Matra R530, a J57-P-20A engine, and finally special test avionics.


The YF-8E(FN) crashed on its 21st flight on April 11th with Bob Rostine in the cockpit. Later that month Matra 530 tests were performed at NAS China Lake (CA) with a US Navy F-8E. A new series of tests was held on June 26th 1964 with the first production aircraft, specially fitted with a measuring nose probe.


The third, fourth and fifth production aircrafts were committed to weapon system tests. The carrier campaign was held in November 1964 aboard USS Shangri-La (CV-38), which is roughly the size of Clemenceau class ships. Planes No.2 and 3 performed these tests, flown by Dick Gralow, Goupil and James H. Flatley. Finally the 13 first aircraft were loaded on the Arromanches at Norfolk on October 6th 1964, and arrived at St-Nazaire on November 4th. The last 29 planes were ferried on the Foch early 1965.
...
On May 7th 1977, two Crusaders went separately on patrol against supposedly French Air Force (4/11 Jura squadron) F-100 Super Sabres stationed at the Djibouti joint forces air base. The leader intercepted two fighters and engaged a dogfight (supposed to be a training exercise) but quickly called his wingman for help….he had actually engaged two Yemenite Mig-21 Fishbed armed with four missiles each. The two French fighters switched their master armament to "on", but in the end everyone returned to his base. This was the only ever combat interception by a French Crusader.
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