Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos II

delft said:

But the things are much too expensive for a small poor country like the UK.

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I would not think so, so much of the work if not all the work was given to British companys from cables to the MT30 engine UK ship building industry was brought back to life because of these two orders infact massive orders, the largest warships ever designed and built inside the UK

They are due to serve the Royal Navy for almost the next 5 decades carrying out the foreign policy misisons and as Jeff pointed put will pay back many times thier worth

Queen Elizabeth will be launched next year and Prince of Wales will follow, now the UK is learning from the Americans the "surge" stratedgy, which means UK if needs have the capability to put to sea both carriers at the same time, this means Royal Navy is very serious about its carriers and will need them see thier value

And as if that wasn't enough the Daring Class DDG are now fully integrated with USN carrier strike groups, and in preparation for the two super carriers Brtitsh pilots are flying off Nimtiz Class using super hornets and on combat missions in Afghanistan from carriers sailing in the Persian Gulf, all that 5 years before we even get the F35, that's says a lot about UK super carrier ambitions, USN and RN are fully integrated into carrier operations, America is really committed on this issue

A Queen Elizabeth carrier escorted by 2-3 Type 45 and Type 26, Astute Class SSN and a new generation MARS Replenishment tanker will put the "Royal" back into the Royal Navy, now times that by two and you have one of the best carrier strike groups on the world

Americans can commit 6 super carriers at any one time, they can manage 8 super carriers if need arises, hell of a naval force, if UK add 2
More that's around 1/3 or 1/4 increase in capabilitys between the USN and RN, between them they can field 10 super carriers in the coming years

Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos II

asif iqbal said:

I would not think so, so much of the work if not all the work was given to British companys from cables to the MT30 engine UK ship building industry was brought back to life because of these two orders infact massive orders, the largest warships ever designed and built inside the UK

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Exactly, the monies that were paid by the taxpayers in the UK are being returned to the economy as a whole through the contracts with UK firms. So, the heavy cost is lightened by providing very good jobs to a lot of people over Britian for long periods of time.

asif iqbal said:

They are due to serve the Royal Navy for almost the next 5 decades carrying out the foreign policy misisons and as Jeff pointed put will pay back many times thier worth

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Once again, spot on. And this is the principle point. They will be standing guard over the UK and ensuring that her economic, trade, alliance, and her general welfare are safe guarded and kept from harm...thereby allowing the UK to grow and prosper, thereby paying for themselves all the more.

Hopefully they will bever be required to be used for the purpose they could serve in defeating agression precisely because they are so modern and strong so as to deter a much more costly conflict. And should someone try and interrupt or violate those interests, then the idea is for them to be so good as to make victory over the agressors as sure a prospect as possible...in which case they will have paid for themselves many times over in that event as well.

asif iqbal said:

Americans can commit 6 super carriers at any one time, they can manage 8 super carriers if need arises, hell of a naval force, if UK add 2 More that's around 1/3 or 1/4 increase in capabilitys between the USN and RN, between them they can field 10 super carriers in the coming years

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For the which, I can tell you as an American, we will be very grateful to have very capable vessels like these help "share the load."

Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos II

Jeff Head said:

For the which, I can tell you as an American, we will be very grateful to have very capable vessels like these help "share the load."

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to be perfectly honest the USN and Royal Navy are soon to become interchangable, so much integration and cross deck operations its pretty unbelievable, and this is not limited to just carrier opps, Royal Auxillary fleet replenishment tankers are always operating East of Suez re-fueling American warships and pilots of both nations are working together on F35, last few years has seen a massive collaboration between the 2 navies

i think the Americans also realise that training up the British is a win win situation for all, and in return they are doing lots of favours but then that is nothing new its always been like that, maybe now its just a little more, never the less i am just looking forward to a British Carrier Strike Group! Top to bottom all new ships and all world class

Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos II

The budget has passed and the PLA will have 720,2 billion yuan (115,7 billion $) to play with this year and the weather has improved. So there are no more excuses for further delays in carrier ops!

As for the Royal Navy there is no doubt that the Queen Elizabeth II class carriers and their escort the Type 45 DDG and the Type 26 FFG are all top notch. However the problem is with the air wing that consist out of F-35B Lightning II which is the weakest and most complex model of the F-35 series. The British made a serious mistake going with this model it would have been much better they went along with the C model instead, but because of budgetary issue's they went for the F-35B instead and ahd to cancel the catapults on the carriers. This will considerably weaken the CVBG as a whole. And without catapults means that this carrier has to rely on helicopter based AEW which is considerably weaker than fixed wing based AEW a problem shared by amongst others the navies of Russia, India and China. The USN is using the C model for their carriers and the B models are only used by the marines onboard the Wasp class LPD's. The UK could have had a winner with Queen Elizebeth II class carriers with 3 steam catapults and navalized Eurofighter Typhoon's. But that is now just a wet dream !

Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos II

Franklin said:

The budget has passed and the PLA will have 720,2 billion yuan (115,7 billion $) to play with this year and the weather has improved. So there are no more excuses for further delays in carrier ops!

As for the Royal Navy there is no doubt that the Queen Elizabeth II class carriers and their escort the Type 45 DDG and the Type 26 FFG are all top notch. However the problem is with the air wing that consist out of F-35B Lightning II which is the weakest and most complex model of the F-35 series. The British made a serious mistake going with this model it would have been much better they went along with the C model instead, but because of budgetary issue's they went for the F-35B instead and ahd to cancel the catapults on the carriers. This will considerably weaken the CVBG as a whole. And without catapults means that this carrier has to rely on helicopter based AEW which is considerably weaker than fixed wing based AEW a problem shared by amongst others the navies of Russia, India and China. The USN is using the C model for their carriers and the B models are only used by the marines onboard the Wasp class LPD's. The UK could have had a winner with Queen Elizebeth II class carriers with 3 steam catapults and navalized Eurofighter Typhoon's. But that is now just a wet dream !

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Agreed! there should have been developed a naval version of the Typhoon, that would be the iceing on the cake!

but F35B is still good, it brings new techologys to the UK and also gives us stealth capabilitys of a new level, like all F35 models they have issues but are in the process of being solved, and if anyone can solve them it would be UK since they even gave Harrier technology to US for development of the F35B, so together they can solve the issue no doubt, UK is well suited to take F35B with its experience and background in this type of aircraft

UK is also looking into V22, and if they make a AEW version the problem is solved, so again things looking up and not down, it was looking down when we were thinking of keeping one carrier in reserve or even worse canceling it, now we know both carriers will be frontline warships ready at a moments notice, QE will be launched next year and our pilots are at Elgin Air Force base undergoing full training and development with F35B, the second of which was delivered in Oct 2012

Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos II

Franklin said:

The budget has passed and the PLA will have 720,2 billion yuan (115,7 billion $) to play with this year and the weather has improved. So there are no more excuses for further delays in carrier ops!

As for the Royal Navy there is no doubt that the Queen Elizabeth II class carriers and their escort the Type 45 DDG and the Type 26 FFG are all top notch. However the problem is with the air wing that consist out of F-35B Lightning II which is the weakest and most complex model of the F-35 series. The British made a serious mistake going with this model it would have been much better they went along with the C model instead, but because of budgetary issue's they went for the F-35B instead and ahd to cancel the catapults on the carriers. This will considerably weaken the CVBG as a whole. And without catapults means that this carrier has to rely on helicopter based AEW which is considerably weaker than fixed wing based AEW a problem shared by amongst others the navies of Russia, India and China. The USN is using the C model for their carriers and the B models are only used by the marines onboard the Wasp class LPD's. The UK could have had a winner with Queen Elizebeth II class carriers with 3 steam catapults and navalized Eurofighter Typhoon's. But that is now just a wet dream !

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I think a naval Typhoon would not have been worth the time and cost to develop, especially when there is a readily available contemporary of the Typhoon with very similar performance that is fully carrier friendly. I am talking of course, of the Rafale.

A Rafale buy would have made far more sense than developing a naval Typhoon, especially considering the relatively small number the RN would need. But politics would had made such a deal impossible, for shame.

I agree with you that canceling the Cats and going with the F35B was a colossal and perplexing mistake. Even if they were dead set on getting F35Bs, it would have cost them nothing more (since it was already budgeted) to keep with the original plan and retain the Cats for AEW and leave themselves all sorts of fall back or supplementary options such as buying F35Cs, Rafales or even superbugs instead of, or even in addition to the F35B.

I think the primary reason the Cats on the carriers were canned was because whichever bright spark who opted for the F35B wanted to tie the UK to that deal and remove any possibility of the UK switching to a different model or cutting the F35 order as that is the only viable option the UK has with regards to carrier fighters now.

However, there is some hope on the horizon wrts to AEW at least, if the American plans for an AEW variant on the Osprey comes to fruition.

But, alas, we are wondering a little far from the original topic, so lets try and get back on track and talk about the PLAN's carrier shall we?

I'm convinced that had the UK gone for steam cats from the very start of the Queen Elizebeth II class carrier project that it would have gotten them by now. Because the steam cats are much cheaper than the EMAL cats and its ready off the shelf technology that can be installed and used immediately. The EMAL cats where still in the development fase and with these big defense projects inevitably runs into cost overruns and time delays. Which have heavily influence the decision to abandon the catapults all together and go for the F-35B and a ski jump. The problem is that the "budget crisis" in the UK came when the carriers where already half build. They could have redesign the ships and fit the steam cats on the Queen Elizebeth II class carriers but that would mean more delays an cost overruns for the project. They didn't want that so they abandon the catapults and went for a VSTOL plane.

The V-22 Osprey is not the ideal platform for AEW missions but still far better than a common helicopter.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is in my view the second best AtA fighter in the world after the F-22 Raptor. It has already shown in exercises that it can handsomely beat the Indian SU-30MKI which is one of the more advanced versions of the Flanker with PESA radar and 2D TVC control. The Eurofighter is of course jointly developed and build by four nations UK, Germany, Spain and Italy. Since those other three countries don't have carriers in their navies that can use a plane like a navalized Typhoon the UK would probably have to fund 100% of its development. The export potential for this version of the Eurofighter is slim indeed if not none. The US, Russia, China and France are all building their own carrier based fighters. Thailand, Brazil, Italy and Spain don't have carriers that can handle a plane like that and India has already put her money on the MiG-29K Fulcrum-D and her domestic carrier based HAL Tejas. Leaving only the UK as the world's sole user. But i still believe it would have been worth it to develop this plane as it can push UK and European aviation industry into a new high and could have created thousands of high paying jobs not only in the UK but also in those other countries that participate in the Eurofighter program. For the two Queen Elizebeth II class carriers the UK would have to order atleast 70 to 90 of these planes and their life cycle costs would have been much lower than the F-35B which is a much more complex plane than the Eurofighter Typhoon and so requires more maintenance. And what is the UK going to get for the large order of F-35's ? What ever sub contract jobs Lockheed Martin throw at them.

The F-35B will remain the weakest link in the future UK CVBG. The F-35B has very limited range, speed and payload capabilities and will require high levels of maintenance. Even the salesmans at Lockheed Martin and their paid shills have to admit that the F-35 is only stealthy from the frontal aspect and only for high X and S band radars. BD Popeye said the F-14 has been phased out for the F/A-18's because of their maintanence requirements. I get the sneaky feeling that F-35B will require even higher levels of maintenance than the F-14 Tomcats.

Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos II

plawolf said:

I agree with you that canceling the Cats and going with the F35B was a colossal and perplexing mistake. Even if they were dead set on getting F35Bs, it would have cost them nothing more (since it was already budgeted) to keep with the original plan and retain the Cats for AEW and leave themselves all sorts of fall back or supplementary options such as buying F35Cs, Rafales or even superbugs instead of, or even in addition to the F35B.

I think the primary reason the Cats on the carriers were canned was because whichever bright spark who opted for the F35B wanted to tie the UK to that deal and remove any possibility of the UK switching to a different model or cutting the F35 order as that is the only viable option the UK has with regards to carrier fighters now.

However, there is some hope on the horizon wrts to AEW at least, if the American plans for an AEW variant on the Osprey comes to fruition.

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It still amazes me that the UK politicians made the decisions that they made with respect to these two carriers. Now that they are not planning to idle one and sell it as soon as it is built, at least they will get both carriers and the F-35B, With all of its built-in limittions because of the VTOL capability, the F-35B will still end uup being far more capable than the Harriers.

If they cross deck to US carriers (and they will be able to very easily because the US Marines are committed to maintaining Marine squadrons of F-35Bs on the nuclear carriers as they have done in the past with the F-18s, the F-4s, A-7s, A-6s, and F-8s before them), they will be able to more fully intergrate the whole operation with the US NAvy and its larger carriers. PAiring a QE and a Nimitzwould make for a very pwoerful combined group.

Still, having aircraft like the E-2D, the Rafale/Typhoon/F=35C, etc. and all the capabilities that would have gone with all of that pitched out the window over some very short term issues...which decision haa now caused the costs to almost equal what they said they were trying to avoid in the first place, is very perplexing and disappointing.

Just the same, the QE carriers with two full squadrons of F-35Bs and a potential decent AEW V-22 variant at some point, and escorted by Type 45s and Type 26s and Astutes are going to be very capable groups all the same, and I am glad that at least the UK is getting those as opposed to what could have happened.

Ok update on USN Carriers from Warship magazine page 42 march issue 2013

After the decommissioning of the Enterprise the navy is down to 10 carriers

USS Abraham Lincoln is in for a delayed mid life refit which will last 4 years which means USN is down to 9 carriers

Compounding the situation USS Nimitz is in docks for repairs and was meant to be ready in early 2013 but won't be sailing until summer meaning now USN is down to 8 carriers

Reduction in numbers has been addressed by extending carrier deployments from 6 months to 9+months and turn around times have been decreased

For example USS Eisenhower returned in Dec 2012 and was ready for redeployment last month, a record 2 month turnaround

This leaves only one carrier in the middle east USS John C Stennis which is on a 8 month deployment and will be replaced by USS Harry S Truman which is due for a 9 month deployment

This leaves trying to keep two carriers in the middle east a tough call

More updates later on!

PS: my personal opinion is that Big E Should have been decommissioned only after the Ford Class enters service, however I do not know if that would be possible

asif iqbal said:

After the decommissioning of the Enterprise the navy is down to 10 carriers

USS Abraham Lincoln is in for a delayed mid life refit which will last 4 years which means USN is down to 9 carriers

Compounding the situation USS Nimitz is in docks for repairs and was meant to be ready in early 2013 but won't be sailing until summer meaning now USN is down to 8 carriers

This leaves only one carrier in the middle east USS John C Stennis which is on a 8 month deployment and will be replaced by USS Harry S Truman which is due for a 9 month deployment

This leaves trying to keep two carriers in the middle east a tough call

PS: my personal opinion is that Big E Should have been decommissioned only after the Ford Class enters service.

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They certainly could have kept the Enterprise running for another two years. That carrier did cost more to operate, but it was still operating just fine. I agree with the idea that she should have been kept operational until the Ford was available, and have said so through the US Naval Institute...but to no avail.

The Obama administration wants to cut as much military spending as possible and saw this (among other things) as an easy way to shave dollars off.

Eight carriers available while three (two at this time) are out because one is in mid-life and another is "spinning up," is not too out of the ordinary. With the ability to augment them if necessary with one or more LHDs or LHAs configured for Sea Cpontrol duties with Harriers (and later F-35Bs) the US can still field a couple of more "carriers" at any time it would be necessary.

Just the same, IMHO, the US should operate 12 Nuclear Powered aircraft carriers and shoot for an ability to surge nine or ten. They should also have (and will have) two aircraft centric LHAs available as well (and with the America and her first follow on in class they will have them).

Once the USS Gerald Ford is commissioned, the US will be back to an eleven carrier force. I believe the Nimitz is slated for decommission in 2020 or so, whenever the JFK (2nd Ford Class) commissions. Then going forward it should be a one for one replacement with the new Ford's coming out and a Nimitz being decommissioned.