Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

asif iqbal said:

The island is a little inwards into the deck, it doesn't sit flush on the edge, wasting space

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Yep, from the start that has been an issue. But, it came with the design of the Gorshkov, and the cost to move the entire Island and all of its wiring, plumbing, HVAC, etc, would have been very prohibitive and probably required a lot of structural change too. So, now they have that extra space outboard of the island.

The position of the island isn't the only problem with this carrier. There are no jet blast deflectors on the deck. Meaning when jets take off then there needs to be alot of space behind it for people and equipment not to get burned. There are no CIWS systems on this ship either. I heard that in 2017 India will place Israeli made Barak systems on it. The hangar deck of this ship is one of the smallest of all the carriers in service. It's about 25% smaller than that of the Kuznetsov and Liaoning. The position of the elevators is even a bigger problem. They are at the center on the deck meaning less space in the already small hangar deck and on the flight deck the elevators can't open during landing and take off of planes. And the MiG-29K can only fit on one of the two elevators. The one between the island and the runway. There is very little room to work for the deck crew as there is no space between the runway and the island. You also have to question how much aviation fuel this carrier can take onboard, 16 MiG-29K guzzle up a lot more fuel than 12 Yak-38 that the ship was originally designed for.

But the space behind the island according to BD Popeye can be used as a "bomb farm". Where they can store all the bombs and munition they need during air ops so that they don't have to open the munition's elevator everytime they need more munition.

(corrected after BD Popeye's mention thanks)

Franklin said:

The position of the island isn't the only problem with this carrier. There are no jet blast deflectors on the deck. Meaning when jets take off then there needs to be alot of space behind it for people and equipment not to get burned. There are no CIWS systems on this ship either. I heard that in 2017 India will place Israeli made Barak systems on it. The hangar deck of this ship is one of the smallest of all the carriers in service. It's about 25% smaller than that of the Kuznetsov and Liaoning. The position of the elevators is even a bigger problem. They are at the center on the deck meaning less space in the already small hangar deck and on the flight deck the elevators can't open during landing and take off of planes. And the MiG-29K can only fit on one of the two elevators. The one infront of the island. There is very little room to work for the deck crew as there is no space between the runway and the island. You also have to question how much aviation fuel this carrier can take onboard, 16 MiG-29K guzzle up a lot more fuel than 12 Yak-38 that the ship was originally designed for.

But the space behind the island according to BD Popeye can be used as a "bomb harvester". Where they can store all the bombs and munition they need during air ops so that they don't have to open the munition's elevator everytime they need more munition.

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That really is my point, when looking straight down the deck, both launch tracks bring the aircraft close to or beside the island, a loss of control, engine explosion, accidental intrusion of a person or vehicle onto the track will be bad and must be guarded against at all costs? It very definetly limits your deck space? AFB

But the space behind the island according to BD Popeye can be used as a "bomb harvester". Where they can store all the bombs and munition they need during air ops so that they don't have to open the munition's elevator everytime they need more munition.

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that would be "Bomb farm"...

PACIFIC OCEAN (July 21, 2008) Two aviation ordnancemen man the bomb farm on the flight deck of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76) during a vertical replenishment with the Military Sealift Command fast combat support ship USNS Bridge (T-AOE 10). The bomb farm is the only place on the flight deck where ordnance can be actively stowed for flight operations. The Ronald Reagan Carrier Strike Group is operating in the 7th Fleet area of responsibility in the western Pacific and Indian oceans. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Joshua Scott/Released)

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Franklin said:

The position of the island isn't the only problem with this carrier. There are no jet blast deflectors on the deck. Meaning when jets take off then there needs to be alot of space behind it for people and equipment not to get burned. There are no CIWS systems on this ship either. I heard that in 2017 India will place Israeli made Barak systems on it. The hangar deck of this ship is one of the smallest of all the carriers in service. It's about 25% smaller than that of the Kuznetsov and Liaoning. The position of the elevators is even a bigger problem. They are at the center on the deck meaning less space in the already small hangar deck and on the flight deck the elevators can't open during landing and take off of planes. And the MiG-29K can only fit on one of the two elevators. The one between the island and the runway. There is very little room to work for the deck crew as there is no space between the runway and the island. You also have to question how much aviation fuel this carrier can take onboard, 16 MiG-29K guzzle up a lot more fuel than 12 Yak-38 that the ship was originally designed for.

But the space behind the island according to BD Popeye can be used as a "bomb harvester". Where they can store all the bombs and munition they need during air ops so that they don't have to open the munition's elevator everytime they need more munition.

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Yes, there are many issues with the Gorshkov conversion...and it showed in the efforts to convert it as well. And yet, it is still a far better soution than the Viraat that they have. The air winf of Mig-29Ks will be far more capable than the old harriers. And the carrier itself is far newer (even though itself is decades old) than the vessel the Viraat was converted from.

So, all in all, the Indians will improve their situation markedly with this carrier...and when their own indegenous carrier is launched next year, they will take an even larger step forward.

All at great cost though. IMHO, they could have had the Spanish or Italians build one of their new vessels new (Juan Carlos or Cavour) that could have been modified to operate the Mig-29K at far less expense, and ended up with a better platform...that is if they could have devised and angle deck with the arrestor recovery. And we know they could, because the US converted several carriers in precisely that manner. I bet either of those would have been far cheaper than the converted Gorshkov is costing.

But as always, hindsight is 20/20. At the time, they were getting the carrier essentially for free by purchasing the Mig-29Ks, and then the cost overruns on the conversion ate them alive.

Franklin said:

The position of the island isn't the only problem with this carrier. There are no jet blast deflectors on the deck. Meaning when jets take off then there needs to be alot of space behind it for people and equipment not to get burned. There are no CIWS systems on this ship either. I heard that in 2017 India will place Israeli made Barak systems on it. The hangar deck of this ship is one of the smallest of all the carriers in service. It's about 25% smaller than that of the Kuznetsov and Liaoning. The position of the elevators is even a bigger problem. They are at the center on the deck meaning less space in the already small hangar deck and on the flight deck the elevators can't open during landing and take off of planes. And the MiG-29K can only fit on one of the two elevators. The one between the island and the runway. There is very little room to work for the deck crew as there is no space between the runway and the island. You also have to question how much aviation fuel this carrier can take onboard, 16 MiG-29K guzzle up a lot more fuel than 12 Yak-38 that the ship was originally designed for.

But the space behind the island according to BD Popeye can be used as a "bomb harvester". Where they can store all the bombs and munition they need during air ops so that they don't have to open the munition's elevator everytime they need more munition.

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Good points

This will reduce the overall sortie rate and the ability to "turn around" fighters, it will also give the carrier a severe handicap in terms of operational flexibility to adapt to a changing situation in war time

Either Indian carrier crews will have to be very efficient and proficient in operating the carrier, if they are also under trained then the combination of the two will hinder full capability of the carrier to be executed

For the Russian's the Admiral Gorshkov is a gift that keeps on giving. The Indians never went to inspect the ship itself. They made the decision to let the Russian's refurbish the ship for them based on looking at photo's.

The Admiral Gorshkov was originally designed as a VSTOL carrier for their Yak-38 Forgers. Can the structure of this ship take the punishment of having MiG-29K's "crashing" on her deck day after day ? The MiG-29K is almost as twice as heavy as the Yak-38 and the ship hull is now 31 years old. Not to mention 8 of those 31 years it has been in derelict and the structure has a lot of corrosion on it as a result.

Franklin said:

For the Russian's the Admiral Gorshkov is a gift that keeps on giving. The Indians never went to inspect the ship itself. They made the decision to let the Russian's refurbish the ship for them based on looking at photo's.

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Are you sure? I ask because I know I read that Indian officers were aboard watching the Russian work on the ship. So was that a fabrication of the Indian military? thanks!

bd popeye said:

Are you sure? I ask because I know I read that Indian officers were aboard watching the Russian work on the ship. So was that a fabrication of the Indian military? thanks!

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I'm not 100% sure but that's what Indians are saying on other forums. That the government never inspected the ship itself before agreeing with the refurbishment deal. After the refurbishment work has started only then we're there Indian observers present.

This might be more common knowledge to folks more well experienced or read on the subject of Carrier ops than I am, but I found this article on Brazil's cooperation with China on training Chinese sailors in carrier operations interesting: