Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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Thanks hkbc..Some issues get me hot. Many times I've made post and immediately deleted them...

Anyway..let's talk about aircraft carriers!

Behold!! the X-47B aboard the HST.

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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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Jeff has an X-47B thread..you guys should check it out!

US Navy's X-47B UCAS Aircraft

These same pics are over there plus many others. These pictures are quite large. Just click on them.

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Franklin

Captain
What will the role of the X-47B drone be in the future CVBG ? And couldn't China use UAV's on board the Liaoning to mitigate her lack of a E-2 Hawkeye like system ?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
What will the role of the X-47B drone be in the future CVBG ? And couldn't China use UAV's on board the Liaoning to mitigate her lack of a E-2 Hawkeye like system ?
The UCAV will be a recon/suveillance/light attack aircraft.

Normally it would be controlled from the vessel throughout its flight profile.

Clearly in a direct attack role against any defended position or vessel, it would rely on its stealth and stand off weapons to get the job done. If the enemy enjoys any airborne defense, even up to parity, the UCAV will be far less effective. It is meant, in those environs to either attack in conjunction with other aircraft, or to attack in an environment where the US or its allies have air superiority or air dominance.

The aircraft can also be controlled by accompanying F/A-18 Super Hornets either themselves attacking, providing air cover, or engaging in radar suppression or EW.

In the recon and surveillance mode, it would be armed and capable of attacking targets of opportunity either on land or at sea.

I suppose these aircraft could be set up, via data link, to be a AEW aircraft, but the radars and equipment required for that mission would be heavier than what the aircraft is intended to carry. A better option would be a prop driven E-2 type aircraft that takes off from a cat or ski-jump and is an arrested landing, or from a conversion to an aircraft like the Osprey.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Huh??? :confused:^^^



I made 7 major deployments on 5 US navy aircraft carriers. Kennedy, Midway, Hancock, America & Nimitz. I've seen thousands of cat shots and arrested landings. I've never see a "Cold Cat" ..never...ever. It happens . But not very frequently. So more than likely your question is not viable.
No disrespect, what you are saying is absolutely correct and precisely my point. A ski-cat carrier can cold launch aircraft, a flat-cat system cannot;
On paper what you post may be correct.

I posted this on the other page;



And how can it be more reliable? The present system employed by the USN works nearly flawlessly.
I think the key is maintenance intensity; not every nation can afford a Nuclear reactor constantly making steam for the catapults.
You know what? The USN at one time (1952-1991) hurled these 70,000 behemoths in the air..behold the A-3 Skywarrior. Launched with smaller cats as installed on Essex class carriers.

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Some of you fellows with your brainiac selves need to get a clue. "Cause I've been there and done that"..been on the flight deck that is. Fact.

Again, no disrespect, I guess there were always naysayers who been there done that in the past said that you cannot launch aircraft off a ship when some brainiac told them that it is theoretically possible. I guess you can testify how wrong those been there done that naysayers were and how happy you are that those brainiacs persisted and insisted.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Letz, thank you for your well though out response.

Again, no disrespect, I guess there were always naysayers who been there done that in the past said that you cannot launch aircraft off a ship when some brainiac told them that it is theoretically possible.

Never stated recently it could not be done. I posted this.

On paper what you post may be correct.

Well everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. I just know what works right now.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
It has never been my intention to insult any member of this forum. Never ever...although I do remember the crybaby incident. Please except my sincere apologies for any item that I may have posted that insults any member of this forum

Ok.. this is for you gentlemen with a desire or knowledge in mathematics and engineering. This PDF is from this year..2012!

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The above PDF is only 13 pages but it goes through all sorts of equations about Ski Ramps and the mathematical formulas. A must read for you members interested in aeronautical engineering and mathematical equations.

It is not biased at all towards the USN. it was written by two Spaniards, José-Luis Hernando and Rodrigo Martínez-Val
Universidad Politécnica de Madrid.

My daughter went there in the summer of 2011..the U of Madrid that is.

Enjoy..
 

delft

Brigadier
It has never been my intention to insult any member of this forum. Never ever...although I do remember the crybaby incident. Please except my sincere apologies for any item that I may have posted that insults any member of this forum

Ok.. this is for you gentlemen with a desire or knowledge in mathematics and engineering. This PDF is from this year..2012!

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The above PDF is only 13 pages but it goes through all sorts of equations about Ski Ramps and the mathematical formulas. A must read for you members interested in aeronautical engineering and mathematical equations.

It is not biased at all towards the USN. it was written by two Spaniards, José-Luis Hernando and Rodrigo Martínez-Val
Universidad Politécnica de Madrid.

My daughter went there in the summer of 2011..the U of Madrid that is.

Enjoy..
Thank you. I'll take a good look at it. Unfortunately I'm rather busy nowadays.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Again, no disrespect, I guess there were always naysayers who been there done that in the past said that you cannot launch aircraft off a ship when some brainiac told them that it is theoretically possible. I guess you can testify how wrong those been there done that naysayers were and how happy you are that those brainiacs persisted and insisted.
Look, the facts are simple.

Steam Cats, and now EM Cats can launch heavier aircraft with fuller loads into the air than a Ski Jump can, and do so reliably (for the steam cats as proven by time) and with maintenance cost that are very acheivable and stable.

Carriers exist to put the most and best aircraft into the air that can attack other targets and defend the carrier force and the attaclking aircraft if necessary.

To date, there is no better system to do that in terms of reliability and maintenance than a cat.

Ski-jumps exist for countries who either cannot afford a cat, or who have not figured out how to make one work...or who mnake a conscience decision that they do not need all that a cat offers.

In most cases, if they knew how, and if they could afford it, they would choose a cat over a jump for the reasons stated above.

Popeye has spent many many years wotrking on the decks of carriers. He understands the practical.

The practical rules in the end because all of the theories, assumptions, calculations against known issues, etc. are proven one way or the other in the real world. A good officer puts very high regard on his NCO personnel precisely because of this issue. An officer comes out of an academy understanding all of the theory...and that is good. But the theory has to be applied in an environment where personnel live and breathe...get fatigued, have issues, etc. And that is what an NCO has lived and breathed...and so he can advise an officer on what will actually work and get the job done while keeping the force alive and as intact as possible. Until the officer has those years of experience, if he is wise, he listens to good NCOs.

Same is true in Engineering. An Engineer understands a lot of theory about materials, equations, dynamics (potentially) and force application...and that too is good But a good field mechanic understands the reality of the real world.

I am an engineer, and have learned this lesson. it is one my Dad taught me (God rest his soul) long ago as I was in college.

We all know what BS stands for.

MS stands for "More of the Same", and PHD stands for "Piled Higher and Deeper."

A good engineer will understand the implications of this little saying and listen to the field folks and avoid a lot of rework, money and potential accidents until he/she gets the field experience themselves and undertsands that what is good in theory certainly does not always work in the reral world.

Theory and calculations always try to account for every variable imagineable...but, invariably, there are some that they do not "imagine," and have to go back to the drawing board to factor them in. People who have "been there and done that," for years on end, know a lot about the "unimaginable."

Anyhow, both systems work for what they are designed for pretty much. Nations and militaries have to choose what their goals are, what they can afford, and what they are trying to accomplish and then choose between the two.

They are not neccessarily mutually exclusive, but to date, if one can have cats, they generally pick to have as many as possible and to use as much as possible of the deck to be able to line up aircraft to launch from them. In that scenario, the redundancy of a ski-jump and its limitations compared to a cat and its reliability and mantainability have shown to date to mean that people who can do so, use cats exclusively.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The USN at one time (1952-1991) hurled these 70,000 behemoths in the air..behold the A-3 Skywarrior.

YOpKs.jpg
Outstanding! The venerable S-3 SkyWarrior, largest in-service attack aircraft used by the US Navy.

But let's not forget these big boys either. 20,000 lbs lighter, but longer aircraft and capable of Mach 2 nuclear attack missions off of the US Carriers from 1961 into the 1980s. The A-5 Vigilante. Here's a flight of them preparing to launch of the enterprise in the 60s.

A3J-1s_VAH-7_CVAN-65_NAN11-62.jpg


Now, though the A-3 was larger and carried 13,000 lbs of bombs, the follow on A-6, which was smaller (20 ft shorter, 20 ft less wingspan, and 20,000 lbs lighter), could actually carry MUCH MORE load...up to 18,000 lbs of ordinance!

That all-weather capability has now been replaced by the Super Hornets. A completely loaded Super Hornet (F/A-18F) can carry up to 17,500 lbs of ordinance. About the same length, but less wingspan than the Intruder, but about the same weight. Much more capable however.
 
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