Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

hkbc said:

I think the ship still needs its boilers sorting out...

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Agreed 100% And they will. But, even with these difficulties, the vessel was able to perform its trials for other areas...and had she been in a serious combat situation, though slower speeds would have increased vulnerabilities and impacted her speed, she still would have been capable of fulfilling her mission.

I believe they will sort this out and that she will be delivered to the Indians in very decent shape later next year.

Jeff Head said:

Popeye, from about 7:40 through 7:50 in this second video, what speed do you think the Vikram is making?

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I wondered how the Russian crew feel during the sea trial. From a once proud Soviet era carrier that became derelict, it was reborn as a modern carrier still flying the Russian Navy ensign, but will soon be taken over by a foreign navy. I guess it is like giving your daughter away for marriage.

There is a fair bit of deck space between port side and the island, any idea what can it be used for? Seems like a waste, but I don't see how it can utilized in any meaningful way.

Jeff Head said:

And yet the Indians are already a good ways down the indigenous path, even while using Russia for the Vikram. The full hull (less the flight deck, upper bow, and island) of their first indegenous carrier, the Vikrant, has already been launched.

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Sorry, my statement was not that clear. India does heavily rely on prototypes, materials, technology, know-how and machines from Russia that are important for her indigenous developments. That's unlike China that has a more autarc approach and pays&helps Russia much less.

Jeff Head said:

And yet the Indians are already a good ways down the indigenous path, even while using Russia for the Vikram. The full hull (less the flight deck, upper bow, and island) of their first indegenous carrier, the Vikrant, has already been launched.

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No doubt Jeff, but this picture is getting a bit old, we have always seen these kind of pictures of FFG and DDG from India, some of them have sat launched for almost half a decade, so this carrier is no different it won’t be commissioned any time before 2018

Work started on the pre-fabricated 800 or so modules blocks back in 2005/6, it took them 3 years to put the modules together laid keel in 2009 and tried to pre-maturely launch it, finally it was launched and now sits awaiting fitting out which has been delayed because everything is imported from sources from around the world, Indian Navy announced a 3 year delay in the fitting out which takes us to 2015/6 and it won’t be commissioned until 2017 more like 2018, and that’s if, and that’s a big “IF” it all goes according to plan

However as all Indian naval projects the government will intervene change the requirement’s, the Navy will change the order and the shipyard will be left playing catch up again, then it won’t fit the original requirement’s and will undergo modifications, Indian politicians have a history of continual interference and meddling in affairs they have no idea about and hence projects like Arjun and LCA billions over budget and decades late and finally rejected by the military

If India does manage to pull through and get 2 aircraft carriers operational by 2020 (Vikram and Vikrant) that means 1 operational at all times, which means is it going to be deployed East or West? It can’t be on 2 places at one time so really until the second Vikrant comes along (post-2025) India will not have cover for both its oceans, in 10 years’ time you can bet Chinas carrier fleet will dwarf anything India has to offer

stack said:

There is a fair bit of deck space between port side and the island, any idea what can it be used for? Seems like a waste, but I don't see how it can utilized in any meaningful way.

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Of course you don't see a meaningful use. You've never sailed the seven seas.. aaarrrvvv!

Well, I don't know what the IN tempo of operations will be but I was aboard the USS Midway CVA-41 in '73 & '74 and the space behind the island was quite large...it was and is still used on all USN carriers as a bomb farm.. That area could also be used to store support equipment.

At sea aboard USS John C. Stennis (CVN 74) Mar. 5, 2002 -- Aviation Ordnanceman 2nd Class James Black from Baton Rouge, LA, supervises the "Bomb Farm" on the flight deck of USS John C. Stennis. The Stennis and Carrier Air Wing Nine (CVW-9) are conducting combat missions in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. U.S. Navy photo by Photographer's Mate 3rd Class Alta I. Cutler. (RELEASED)

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timepass said:

plus India have all sorts of support from Uncle SAM/West & offcourse Russia (XMAS time always), while on other hand China with sorts of EMBARGOS.

CV 16 is actually rebuild by China & its symbol of pride for them without any outside support.

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Has China build its domestic arms industry despite the embargos or has China build its defence industry because of the embargos ? China has been unable to buy arms from Europe and the US since 1989. And the Russian's are playing games when it comes to arms exports in the 1990's and in the early 2000's. So China was forced to develop its own arms industry and technology. Not to mention that China's increasing amounts of defence dollars has almost nowhere else to go but to the domestic arms industries. The Russian's in the 1990's was able to get away with supplying China with second rate arms because they know that there was nowhere else that China could have gotten weapons. China that saw what the US was able to do in the 1991 Persian Gulf War was unimpressed by what the Russian's had supplied them. So China used the technology it got from the Russian's in the 1990's and for what they could have gleaned from industrial espionage in the West combined with China's industrial growth overall and turn it into the bases for its defence industry today. The restoration of the Liaoning is the combination of China's formidable shipbuilding industry and its considerable electronics industries that China was able to build up over the last 20 years.

asif iqbal said:

No doubt Jeff, but this picture is getting a bit old

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Well, it is a year old, but outfitting work continues inside out of our view. I do not need to remind you that the Liaoning also set for many years with little apparent progress, and yet throughout that time work was ongoing to produce what we see today. So, I expect it will be similar with the Vikrant, except in this case because the Indians have a more open press, we know the reasons for any delays. Those gear boxes have given them fits.

asif iqbal said:

Indian Navy announced a 3 year delay in the fitting out which takes us to 2015/6 and it won’t be commissioned until 2017 more like 2018, and that’s if, and that’s a big “IF” it all goes according to plan

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Which helps make my point. She will be handed over in 2017-2018, which means she will launch and begin trials close to a year before...so, 2016-2017.

asif iqbal said:

If India does manage to pull through and get 2 aircraft carriers operational by 2020 (Vikram and Vikrant) that means 1 operational at all times, which means is it going to be deployed East or West? It can’t be on 2 places at one time so really until the second Vikrant comes along (post-2025) India will not have cover for both its oceans, in 10 years’ time you can bet Chinas carrier fleet will dwarf anything India has to offer

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Which is fine. The Indians only have one, antiquated carrier now. By 2018, they will have two. I personally expect the third to launch in the 2021-2022 time frame and be in service by 2023.

I seriously doubt the PLAN will come anywhere close to"dwarfing" those numbers by 2023. They apparently have not started their 1st indigenous carrier yet...so we are probably looking at 2018, soonest for it to be in service, and depending on when they start the second, you are looking at time frames very similar to India to get to three carriers by 2023.

So, in actuality, it is likely that the PLAN and the Indian Navy will have three modern carriers in almost exactly the same time frames...and they will consist of the same types. For each, one refit and modernized older Russian carrier (which I believe the Liaoning is the better of the two, though the Vikramaditya is far better than what India currently has in the Viraat), and each will have two of their own, brand new indegenous carriers...in all likelyhood, one of which will be STOBAR and one CATOBAR each.

Now I expect the PLAN to continue on beyond three carriers (and India probably will not) and maybe the PRC will have five by 2030.

yes ok that sounds fair with regards to the dates, in addition for India the rate determining step is outfitting and not the designing and launching, India is not bad at designing and launching, its the out fitting which makes or breaks the projects, and the reason why the outfitting is the rate determining step is because a vast majority of components are sourced from outside which is a logistical headache

anyhow i am just happy that China has shown us some landings and take-offs the race is now back on!

asif iqbal said:

yes ok that sounds fair with regards to the dates, in addition for India the rate determining step is outfitting and not the designing and launching, India is not bad at designing and launching, its the out fitting which makes or breaks the projects, and the reason why the outfitting is the rate determining step is because a vast majority of components are sourced from outside which is a logistical headache

anyhow i am just happy that China has shown us some landings and take-offs the race is now back on!

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News reports indicate that the Liaoning will be conducting barrier arrested landing tests with J-15s on its next voyage, actually using the large netted barrier (which is there for emergencies)...among other tests.

This is all good, steady, measured progress for the Liaoning and the PLAN.

CdeG will get a radar upgrade during its next planned refit

French Navy Frigate, Aircraft Carrier to be fitted with new Thales SMART-S Mk2 radar in 2013

Marine Nationale vessels Type F70 AA, Anti-Aircraft Frigate "Cassard" and Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier "Charles de Gaulle" are set to receive a radar upgrade in 2013. Their existing radars will be replaced with the Thales SMART-S Mk2 3D multi-beam air and surface radar.

Jean Bart, Cassard' sister ship already received this upgrade in April 2012 when its existing DRBJ-11B 3-D air search radar was replaced with the Thales SMART-S Mk2.

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