Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Jeff Head said:

With the Vikramaditya, and their new Vikrant (which should be launched in 2013 too), soon the Indians will have two very capable STOBAR carriers and the airwings to go with them.

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If their local made ship don't face anymore delays that is, but it's India we're talking about here, it's rare to hear them complete anything on schedule and/or on budget.

Still, no doubt MiG-29 is more potent than Harrier in terms of performance and capabilities...and unless something extremely FUBAR happens India will no doubt have their assets in place ahead of China's by at least a decade; of course it isn't fair because China have to do everything from scratch and without outside help, but there's no such thing as "fair" when you're talking about arms race, right?

MwRYum said:

If their local made ship don't face anymore delays that is, but it's India we're talking about here, it's rare to hear them complete anything on schedule and/or on budget.

Still, no doubt MiG-29 is more potent than Harrier in terms of performance and capabilities...and unless something extremely FUBAR happens India will no doubt have their assets in place ahead of China's by at least a decade; of course it isn't fair because China have to do everything from scratch and without outside help, but there's no such thing as "fair" when you're talking about arms race, right?

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I don't see how can they be ahead for a decade? Latest news suggest Russia will deliver the carrier in Q4 2013. You can see they already have jets and landing and all that, but if it is not delivered, it is still NOT yet India's. Also latest news suggest their indigenous carrier will not be ready until 2019-2020.

So we'll see by this time next year the progress of J-15 on CV16 vs Mig-29 on Ins Vikramaditya. My prediction is when the India carrier finally be delivered by 2013 hardware wise they will have a mature air wing. As for J-15 on CV 16, it will starting to appear and they can make take off and landings and such, but it will not be a full air wing, and they will still be experimenting with it and learning new things. But it will hardly be a decade behind India.

The real race I think is for China's next carrier vs the one India is building. I think China have a very good chance to finish that before 2019. It appears when India starting to build new a new warship they take the philosophy of starting it ASAP even when other technology is not ready, then they give very optimistic projection of when the technology will will be ready and able to fit on the ship, but more often than not those projections are wrong, so the ships often sit in the water/dry dock for years and years. For China, they won't start a project until they make sure every technology/subsystem is ready. When they start to build a ship, it will be with full shift with very little down time all the way from start to finish.

Check out this article to see what I'm talking about. I'm not bashing India, it is just a difference in philosophy.

jackliu said:

I don't see how can they be ahead for a decade? Latest news suggest Russia will deliver the carrier in Q4 2013. You can see they already have jets and landing and all that, but if it is not delivered, it is still NOT yet India's. Also latest news suggest their indigenous carrier will not be ready until 2019-2020.

So we'll see by this time next year the progress of J-15 on CV16 vs Mig-29 on Ins Vikramaditya. My prediction is when the India carrier finally be delivered by 2013 hardware wise they will have a mature air wing. As for J-15 on CV 16, it will starting to appear and they can make take off and landings and such, but it will not be a full air wing, and they will still be experimenting with it and learning new things. But it will hardly be a decade behind India.

The real race I think is for China's next carrier vs the one India is building. I think China have a very good chance to finish that before 2019. It appears when India starting to build new a new warship they take the philosophy of starting it ASAP even when other technology is not ready, then they give very optimistic projection of when the technology will will be ready and able to fit on the ship, but more often than not those projections are wrong, so the ships often sit in the water/dry dock for years and years. For China, they won't start a project until they make sure every technology/subsystem is ready. When they start to build a ship, it will be with full shift with very little down time all the way from start to finish.

Check out this article to see what I'm talking about. I'm not bashing India, it is just a difference in philosophy.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

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I think in the hardware department the Chinese are ahead of the Indians having been forced to build out their own carrier with largely their own systems from what was essentially an empty shell. All indications so far seem to show they've done a good job, they've also had to reverse engineer and produce their own aircraft. The Indians basically paid someone else to do all the work, while their indigenous efforts haven't really moved forward much.

In the operations department the indians are ahead having had the advantage of tutelage from, initially, the British and more recently the Russians (note the co-pilot/backseat driver in the video was Russian) whereas the Chinese have to buildup/beg/borrow/steal that expertise in the forthcoming years.

I would expect the Chinese admirals to have studied their history and learnt the lessons from the fate of the beiyang fleet during the sino-japanese war of 1894 that there's more to war than having the nicest kit!

hkbc said:

I would expect the Chinese admirals to have studied their history and learnt the lessons from the fate of the beiyang fleet during the sino-japanese war of 1894 that there's more to war than having the nicest kit!

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Indeed, with the wind of Japanese politics is blowing, another Sino-Japanese war won't be far fetch and far off, that means China is on a "rush" schedule...but nothing in the carrier department can be rush though.

And for the "on topic" aspect of things, it all comes down to whether India's state enterprises and R&D institutes can pull their acts together this time, plus whether the Russian would decided to milk them some more, as much for the money but for the sake of vendetta too.

hkbc said:

I think in the hardware department the Chinese are ahead of the Indians having been forced to build out their own carrier with largely their own systems from what was essentially an empty shell. All indications so far seem to show they've done a good job, they've also had to reverse engineer and produce their own aircraft. The Indians basically paid someone else to do all the work, while their indigenous efforts haven't really moved forward much.

In the operations department the indians are ahead having had the advantage of tutelage from, initially, the British and more recently the Russians (note the co-pilot/backseat driver in the video was Russian) whereas the Chinese have to buildup/beg/borrow/steal that expertise in the forthcoming years.

I would expect the Chinese admirals to have studied their history and learnt the lessons from the fate of the beiyang fleet during the sino-japanese war of 1894 that there's more to war than having the nicest kit!

Click to expand...

it is true to the extent, with regards to India you can’t really compare China and India in terms of naval assets and developments, in fact in every of naval warfare China is ahead and by a massive margin, especially considering the FFG and DDG China has been working it is on a different level

the only time India comes close is with regards to carriers, but I said it long time ago INS Vikramaditya is going to be delayed, in fact India knew 5 years ago this project was a dud that’s why they started their own carrier project which itself has been plague by delays due to the politician’s medaling with affairs of the Navy and the Navy constantly changing their minds as to what to do from over 300 different suppliers from both national and international company’s

few years back everyone was saying India will first field a carrier followed by China, anyone who has looked at Indian defense deals would say differently, and now it looks like China will field one before India

Indian high command have stated it would be 1 year since Mig-29K have been flying in Goa before the carrier joins, them this means INS Vikramaditya is coming maybe middle of next year but porbably even later

Indian navy has now slashed 2013 date for INS Vikrant further back by 3 years, now its 2016, due to the dockyard not being equipped enough, it was supposed to be launched in 2011 and it may get launched next year but the fitting out has suffered more delays and I think by the time its commissioned we are looking post 2016 this is if there is a massive miracle

And I think it’s better not to mention INS Vishal, it probably would be commissioned till way past 2020 they are still arguing over its aircraft and forgot to start its construction, , China may start its second carrier after India but will finish before

So overall China is ahead, but in terms of naval aviators time will tell but as time goes on aircraft like J-31 will pull through

but India is just one of the problems for China, you have rest of countrys in South China Sea messing around, Japan will have 4 flat tops, Korea has 1 might get 3 more, Aussies have 2 flat tops and even Russia is getting flat tops from France the Mistral Class

so the game in Asia is intense, countrys have big budgets and big dreams, China is playing in a tough neighbourhood but i think its well set to play the game nicely

US sent invitation to China to send its navy for excersies and US now is allowed to visit New Zealand, in return New Zealand can send ships to US after 26 year ban so its interesting times

asif iqbal said:

it is true to the extent, with regards to India you can’t really compare China and India in terms of naval assets and developments, in fact in every of naval warfare China is ahead and by a massive margin, especially considering the FFG and DDG China has been working it is on a different level

the only time India comes close is with regards to carriers, but I said it long time ago INS Vikramaditya is going to be delayed, in fact India knew 5 years ago this project was a dud that’s why they started their own carrier project which itself has been plague by delays due to the politician’s medaling with affairs of the Navy and the Navy constantly changing their minds as to what to do from over 300 different suppliers from both national and international company’s

few years back everyone was saying India will first field a carrier followed by China, anyone who has looked at Indian defense deals would say differently, and now it looks like China will field one before India

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Some comments

1) There's a little selective interpretation here, the Indians have been operating aircraft carriers for close on 5 decades, even used one in the 1971 Indo-Pakistani Naval War. So without bias or favour it would be safe to say they know how to operate a carrier, the carrier(s) they've had may not be the biggest, newest or technologically the most advanced but they do know what to do with one. The Chinese on the other hand openly say that they are "training up" and are happy to declare the liaoning to be a "training carrier", although they are probably a lot further down the line than they'd openly admit!

2) All the talk of the Russians mugging the Indians is simply down to the fact it's a sellers market, if you can figure it out yourself great if not you pay and carry on paying, as they say turkeys don't vote for Christmas, the Russians aren't a charity!

3) Not comparing India with China, but contrasting the effects of constraints placed on the development of both Navies one with the freedom to acquire 3rd party technology and know how the other with externally imposed restrictions. The western arms embargo on China has forced it to be self sufficient across a broad range of military technologies, the comparative ease which India can procure external military know how has had a detrimental effect on its domestic programs.

4) Whatever the media likes to portray and the rhetoric spouted by the US state department (Victoria Nuland you are a youtube legend!) there's no naval arms race in Asia. The Australians need replacement Amphib ships, the Indians need to replace their Carriers, the Japanese are still sticking to their 1% GDP defense spending and Chinese defense spending grows roughly inline with it's GDP growth. If that's a race then all the contestants are taking a very leisurely approach! As for what's happening in the south and east China sea, there was more action between ships in the Icelandic Cod Wars of the 1970s!

India hid away its carrier INS Vikrant in the 1971 war and never deployed it to Pakistans coast, it was stationed in the Bay of Bengal and was chased all the way by a PN Submarine PNS Ghazi , it later turned out the carrier was sailed as far as Andaman Islands so a repeat of 1965 does not occur when PNS Hangor took 2/3 of the Indian 14th Frigate Squadron of the Western Fleet when INS Khukri, Kirpan were taken out, the first sinking using submarine since WWII

infact India has never fielded a carrier in its wars with Pakistan, not in 1965, 1971, 1999 and not in 2002 or after our nuclear tests in 1998

India has operated carriers for decades, true, but has never mastered carrier opps to the efficiency to send into a battle with a screen of escorts

no doubt this time around Mig-29K pilots are good, but their flyng hours are way less than the top end sqaudrons

there will not be much between J15 and Mig-29K pilots

Has an Indian navy pilot landed on the carrier yet?

cn_habs said:

Has an Indian navy pilot landed on the carrier yet?

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That is a great question..I wish we knew..

Now..INS Vikramaditya

What's this??





Is that a fuel truck? ^^^ A CV should have an independent aviation fueling system with fueling stations throughout the hangar and on the flight deck capable of fueling multiple aircraft simultaneously...Tell this is not a fuel truck? Because if it is this really limits your sortie rate.

asif iqbal said:

India hid away its carrier INS Vikrant in the 1971 war and never deployed it to Pakistans coast, it was stationed in the Bay of Bengal and was chased all the way by a PN Submarine PNS Ghazi , it later turned out the carrier was sailed as far as Andaman Islands so a repeat of 1965 does not occur when PNS Hangor took 2/3 of the Indian 14th Frigate Squadron of the Western Fleet when INS Khukri, Kirpan were taken out, the first sinking using submarine since WWII

infact India has never fielded a carrier in its wars with Pakistan, not in 1965, 1971, 1999 and not in 2002 or after our nuclear tests in 1998

India has operated carriers for decades, true, but has never mastered carrier opps to the efficiency to send into a battle with a screen of escorts

no doubt this time around Mig-29K pilots are good, but their flyng hours are way less than the top end sqaudrons

there will not be much between J15 and Mig-29K pilots

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So are you claiming the Sea Hawks from the Vikrant never attacked Chittagong harbour or sank the East Pakistani gun boats in 1971? For the purposes of full disclosure I am not Indian and I don't have an axe to grind about the disputes between Pakistan and India.

I think the PLA Navy has achieved a great deal with the commissioning of the Liaoning which they can be justifiably proud. That achievement stands on its own and doesn't need the denial of the history or the put downs of the capabilities and achievements of other Navies to "reinforce" it.

In the same vein the Indians can be proud that after the billions they've invested they'll have a Carrier that's a great improvement over the one that it's replacing.

Given the respective carriers are both STOBAR I for one would relish the sight of the IN and PLAN carriers in some cross decking exercises! A sentiment that's probably not universally shared!