Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Obi Wan Russell

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Due to post WWII laws Japan are not allowed to create any air craft carriers, so they just call it something else instead of a "carrier".

An old chestnut here, the Japanese constitution makes no mention anywhere of 'Aircraft Carriers', only 'Offensive Weapons'. This has long been interpreted to mean Carriers as they were primarily percieved as Offensive Weapons, but if there was any possibility of proving this in a court of Law the JMSDF would never have ordered the 16DDH class in first place, because someone in Japan would have taken the Government to Court! Both the 16DDH cass and the 22DDH class would be classified as Aircraft Carriers in any court case without a doubt, so we can only conclude their peculiar designations are purely to appease the home audience. If the Japanese Government wanted to call them Carriers, they could without any legal impediment, but there would be political opposition to the ships if they did so.

We had the same problem in the 70s. Politicians would not sanction carriers for the RN, but the RN knew carriers were indispensible for their mission. So they called them 'Through Deck Cruisers' ('See-Through Cruisers') and the politicians focussed on other matters instead.
 
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franco-russe

Senior Member
TZtTp.jpg


navyreco..how old is that photo? I ask because I see F-8 Crusaders on deck! The Aéronavale flew them until 1999..I think.

Very old! FOCH was modernised with Crotale Naval launchers replacing the forward starboard and aft port 100 mm batteries in 1987-88.

I believe the F-8P were kept even longer in service than you suggest, until about 2002 when Rafale-M began to enter squadron service(or flotilla service, since we are talking about Aéronavale first-line aircraft!) .
 

delft

Brigadier
1986 seems to me to be very late for an aircraft carrier with such heavy guns. I don't doubt the date, just think that the French were very retarded. Didn't they have the money to get rid earlier of those guns?
 

franco-russe

Senior Member
Of course the Marine Nationale is not retarded, they probably did not find it very urgent to install a point defence system, making it instead coincide with a major refit.

The Crotale was first mounted on the first three GEORGES LEYGUES class and the three TOURVILLE class frigates in 1979-1982, which evidently had priority over the carriers.

By 1991 they were producing enough Crotale Naval for export to China, where they were installed in LUDA 166 and 109.
 

delft

Brigadier
They were maintaining 100 mm guns which were too heavy to be much use against aerial targets, which have a great weight, with their own magazines and crew when targets to shoot at were unlikely to appear ever. The ship will be protected against surface vessels by her escorts and her aircraft. I don't see why these guns were ever part of the design!
 

franco-russe

Senior Member
You must bear in mind that at the time the PA57 design was finalised (yes, in 1957), the US was mounting 4 x 2 x 127 mm on the FORRESTAL class. That was what people did at the time.

You must be wondering why antiaircraft brigades of PLA group armies each have two battalions of 12 PG59-100 guns! Today!
 

bd popeye

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The USS Enterprise CVN-65 will be making it's final deployment starting Sunday. The Big E was commissioned November 25th 1961. Long before most of you fellows were born. The article says this is "The Big E"s 22nd deployment.. wrong I say! Count 'em up! I count 27 major deployments..(2 months or longer. correct me if I'm wrong)..

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By BROCK VERGAKIS | Associated Press

NORFOLK, Virginia (AP) — When the makers of "Top Gun" were filming on board the USS Enterprise, they donated a set of black fuzzy dice to liven up the ship's otherwise drab interior.

A quarter-century later, the dice will still be dangling inside the tower of "the Big E" as the world's first nuclear-powered aircraft carrier sets sail on its final voyage Sunday.

The trinket is a reminder of the ship's storied 50-year history that includes action in several wars, a prominent role in the Cuban missile crisis and serving as a spotter ship for John Glenn's historic orbit of the earth.

"To serve on this ship, certainly in this capacity, you certainly have to be a student of the ship's history," said Rear Adm. Walter Carter, commander of the Enterprise strike group. "Fifty years of service, in our nation's history, we've never had a warship in service that long."

The Enterprise is heading to the Middle East on its seven-month deployment, where it will be on standby in case of conflict with Iran or piracy threats off Somalia, among other things. The ship has experience with both scenarios, participating in a retaliatory strike against Iran for mining the Arabian Gulf in 1988 and responding last year to the hijacking of a sailing vessel by Somali pirates, during which all four Americans on board were shot and killed.

The Enterprise is the longest aircraft carrier in the U.S. fleet. It is also the oldest, a distinction that brings pride as well as plenty of headaches for the ship's more than 4,000 crew members. The ship is effectively a small city that frequently needs repairs because of its age. It was originally designed to last 25 years, but a major overhaul in 1979 and other improvements have extended its life.

The ship largely looks like any other carrier on the inside and has modern amenities like gyms, a coffee shop and a television station with dozens of channels. It even produces its own daily newspaper while at sea.

But even the best-maintained ship faces challenges as it ages.

"It's kind of like when you get older and you know it's harder to get out of the bed in the morning. It takes you a couple hours to kind of really get up and then you're fine. Well, it's the same sort of thing here with Enterprise," Capt. William Hamilton, the ship's commanding officer, said days before the ship was set to deploy from Naval Station Norfolk.

Hamilton acknowledged all aircraft carriers have problems they're supposed to anticipate, but he said the Enterprise is more likely to have "unknown unknowns" than newer ships.

Machinists in charge of fixing unexpected problems say the things that can break down range from critical air conditioner units to elevators that lift fighter jets from the hangar bay to the flight deck not working. Moreover, the Enterprise has eight nuclear reactors to maintain — six more than any other U.S. carrier.

The problems are so notorious that sailors reporting to work aboard the Enterprise are often given joking condolences by their colleagues on shore and on other ships.

The ship regularly has to make its own parts from scratch when something breaks down. Spare parts for much of the ship, which is the only one of its class, simply don't exist.

"Life is hard on Enterprise," Hamilton said. "But when they leave here, they leave knowing if they can do this, they can do anything."

The challenges aboard the ship and the need to keep spirits up were highlighted last year, when former commanding officer Capt. Owen Honors was fired for airing raunchy videos that he said were intended to boost morale. During a hearing in which Honors was trying to avoid being kicked out of the Navy, he and his lawyers frequently referenced the difficult conditions on board. Honors was found to have committed misconduct, but ultimately allowed to stay in the service. He is retiring in April.

Hamilton acknowledged that maintaining morale on the ship — which has unofficial mottos like "There's tough, and then there's Enterprise tough" and "We eat pain like candy" — is still vital.

"As much as anything, it's just telling them face to face that you appreciate, the Navy appreciates, the nation appreciates what they're doing and then that goes a long, long way," he said.

There's also the added bonus of the ship's crew members feeling particularly proud to serve on a ship whose name has a distinguished place in naval history and pop culture.

Crew members who weren't even alive when "Top Gun" was in theaters in 1986 use the film to explain what it is they do on the ship, as well as exactly where it is they do it.

For Petty Officer 1st Class Brian Dennis, there's also pride in his ship having the same name as the ship featured in the "Star Trek" series. He's from Cairo, Georgia, the same home town as "Star Trek" creator Gene Roddenberry.

"In a way I wanted to be part of this ship, to be on the last deployment, to be a part of that. Being from Cairo, that's real huge," he said. "I always wanted to be a part of history, so being on this last deployment it'll be something I can definitely tell my children and grandchildren."

The deployment will be the ship's 22nd. Following its return to Virginia in the fall, tens of thousands are expected to be on hand for a deactivation ceremony Dec. 1 that President Barack Obama has been invited to attend. But if "Top Gun" producer Jerry Bruckheimer wants to film a sequel, he'll have to find another ship.

The following summer, Enterprise will be towed to the shipyard where it was built in nearby Newport News so its nuclear fuel can be removed, a process that will take until 2015. What remains of the ship after that will then be taken to Washington state so it can be scrapped.

The ship, among the first to respond after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, won't be turned into a museum like some other carriers. Crews have to cut large holes in the vessel to remove the nuclear fuel, and it would be too expensive to repair, said Lt. Cmdr. Sarah Self-Kyler, the Enterprise's public affairs officer.

Instead, many of the ship's alumni want another carrier to be named Enterprise in the future, which is not uncommon, she said.

This is the eighth ship to bear the name Enterprise, and there's a room on board dedicated as a museum to past incarnations. The preceding USS Enterprise was the most decorated ship in World War II, while the first Enterprise joined the U.S. fleet after it was captured from the British in 1775.

If a future carrier is renamed Enterprise, it's unclear if the fuzzy dice will make journeys on board that ship, too, or remain in a Navy museum.

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Obi Wan Russell

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You must bear in mind that at the time the PA57 design was finalised (yes, in 1957), the US was mounting 4 x 2 x 127 mm on the FORRESTAL class. That was what people did at the time.

You must be wondering why antiaircraft brigades of PLA group armies each have two battalions of 12 PG59-100 guns! Today!

Agreed. To elaborate, after the end of WW2, studies into the effectiveness of AAA fire showed that against determined aerial attack, eg Kamikazes and even regular enemy aircraft, weapons of less than 3 inch calibre were considered near useless as they could not guaratee to knock out an attacker with a single hit. The reality is that smaller caliblres such as 40mm and 20mm continued in service and are still to found aboard ships to this day along with similar calibres, but the emphasis was for heavier weapons. This is why for example when HMS Victorious was rebuilt in the 1950s, her 8 twin 4.5" guns were removed and replaced by a new battery of 6 twin 3" guns (and a six barrelled 40mm mount). Also on the Tiger class cruisers, AA was to handled by three twin 3" automatic mounts. The French had developed the 3.9" (100mm) mount postwar and fitted it to just about every class of warship they built, even their two postwar cruisers (incomplete pre war de Grasse and postwar Colbert) gave up more traditional cruiser heavy guns for AA oriented 3.9" guns. Fitting them as the main defensive battery of the Clemenceaus was in the 1950s a no brainer. That the survived for so long with the advent of Naval SAMs is more due to the squeeze on Defence budgets over the years. Even when the Carriers were refitted with SAM batteries, those guns which were not 'in the way' of the new sponsons were left in situ simply because it was cheaper to leave them there.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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The Living Legend the USS Enterprise CVN 65 sets sail on her final deployment..

"The Big E" slogan is "We are Legend"..

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sorry..no hi-res on this pic..
In this March 8, 2012 photo, sailors move supplies and equipment as they prepare for the final deployment of the nuclear aircraft carrier USS Enterprise at the Norfolk Naval Station in Norfolk, Va. The ship's storied 50-year history includes action in several wars, a prominent role in the Cuban missile crisis and serving as a spotter ship for
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's orbit of the Earth.

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NORFOLK (March 11, 2012) Sailors man the rails as the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise (CVN 65) departs Naval Station Norfolk for its final deployment. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Matthew Perreault & Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Rafael Martie/Released)


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NORFOLK (March 11, 2012) Sailors aboard the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise (CVN 65) man the rails in the hangar bay while departing Naval Station Norfolk for the ship's 22nd and final deployment. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist Seaman Randy J. Savarese & Mass Communication Specialist Seaman Heath Zeigler/Released)


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I was looking for info about an additional carrier moving to San Diego and I found this three week old video..

[video=youtube;8CI2CjtI_Ag]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CI2CjtI_Ag[/video]
 
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