Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The reason for all the different trousers you see is that the USN is given hand me down BDUs etc to be worn on the flight deck and hangar deck so as not to ruin the real USN working uniform. This started because years ago when sailor wore dungarees the dungarees did not stand up to the work environment of Naval Aviation.

Shipmates working in naval aviation get extremely dirty. Especially those working on the catapults and arresting gear.

However eventually all sailors will have to wear the new USN working uniform on the flight deck. Don't look for that to happen any time soon.
I also Know A company and mil contractor is pushing too replace the Jerseys with FR versions. If anyone needs FR it's the carrier deck guys.
Now about the ISE I have a surprise
She was Launched in get ready for it....
2009!
Laid down on 30 May 2008, she was launched 21 August 2009, and commissioned on 16 March 2011 giving her a 2 year shake down. Fallowing that pattern then the 19000t class should be done next year launched and then commissioned 2014-15
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Following that pattern then the 19000t class should be done next year launched and then commissioned 2014-15
I've been looking for good construction pics of the 22DDH (19000t) carrier the JMSDF is building but have not been able to find any as of yet.

It should be well along in construction as I too expect it could be launched next year.
 

navyreco

Senior Member
It is common duration for this type of ship no?

Dixmude LHD, latest (3rd) of Mistral class:
Laid down: 18 April 2009
Launched: 18 December 2010
Commissioned: Expected May 2011
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
those are some fast builds. I know the FN Mistral class is not built to military standards. Are the JMSDF HYUGA class built to military standards?

For comparison the USS Makin Island was;
Laid down on 14 February 2004
Launched on 22 September 2006
Commissioned on 24 October 2009

In fairness the Makin Island commissioning was delayed due to damage caused by Hurricane Katrina and some faulty installation of electrical wiring..which was corrected.

And of course the Makin Island was built to military standards.
 

delft

Brigadier
What about this article from Bloomberg about the F-35?
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Lockheed’s F-35 Costs Rose 64% Over Decade in ‘Rich Man’s World’

By Gopal Ratnam and Tony Capaccio - Nov 3, 2011

Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT) won the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks when U.S. B-52 bombers were pummeling the Taliban and Pentagon spending was unleashed.

Ten years and $66 billion later, the aircraft is still in development, five years behind schedule and 64 percent over cost estimates. The Obama administration may cancel some models and also cut the Pentagon’s orders.

The plane, envisioned as the affordable stealth fighter for the U.S. and allies, has turned into a budget target.

“I’d blame the program’s setbacks on the fact that we lived in a rich man’s world,” said Jacques Gansler, a former Pentagon chief weapons buyer in the Clinton administration and now a professor at the University of Maryland at College Park. “There has been less emphasis on cost over the past 10 years,” he said.

During that decade, the F-35 cost rose along with the Pentagon’s overall budget for developing and buying new weapons, which increased 62 percent to $208 billion in 2011 from $128 billion in 2001. The jet has been bedeviled by a costly redesign, faulty cost estimates, fluctuating order quantities, and infrastructure built on assumptions of rapid production.

Even so, the plane has not failed or faced crippling technical problems in flight tests, and Lockheed says the jets are meeting test goals. Last month, the Marine Corps version, the most complex variant, demonstrated the first short takeoff and vertical landing on a ship.

Variants

Still, Army General Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said last month the U.S. may not be able to afford three variants, for the Air Force, Navy aircraft carriers, and the Marine Corps.

Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld hailed the F-35 as a transformational family of airplanes for the U.S. and its allies in three variants built off a common chassis and assembly line. The jet would be the “world’s premier strike platform beginning in 2008,” said Pete Aldridge, the then-top U.S. weapons buyer, said in October 2001, at a Pentagon news conference.

Yet the program has been delayed by five years, and development costs have grown 64 percent to $56.4 billion since the program’s inception, according to data from the U.S. Government Accountability Office. The overall cost, including procurement of about 2,400 U.S. aircraft, has risen to $382.5 billion, according to an independent estimate by the congressionally mandated Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation office.

The Pentagon’s Joint Program Office led by Vice Admiral David Venlet, who oversees the JSF program, declined to comment for this article.

‘Affordable’ Stealth Jet

The idea of a common platform, affordable stealth jet for the Air Force and Navy took root in 1993, as the Air Force looked ahead to replacing its Lockheed F-16s and the Navy toward a successor for the Boeing Co (BA).-built F-18s. The Pentagon in 1996 chose Boeing Co. and Lockheed to start design work.

Then-Pentagon weapons chief Paul Kaminski said cost was “an independent variable” -- an imperative in addition to the plane’s capabilities.

That focus on cost was lost early along the way, said retired Air Force General George Muellner, who managed the early stages of the JSF’s concept development.

The goal of producing the Marine Corps’ short-takeoff and vertical-landing, or STOVL, model -- the most complex configuration -- was “supposed to be several years behind” the Air Force’s simpler, lighter model, said Muellner, a former Vietnam combat pilot who worked at Boeing for 10 years after leaving the Air Force and retired in 2008.

‘Burn Rate’

Instead, after the Marines lobbied to have their model go first, the Pentagon in 2003 asked Lockheed to begin work on that jet. It also sought more software capabilities in earlier versions of the plane than originally planned, Muellner said.

That meant more people working at Lockheed’s plant, “increasing the burn rate per day” and stacking technical and program risks on “top of each other.”

Retired Air Force General Merrill “Tony” McPeak, who was the service’s chief when the program began, said creating a Marine Corps version cost a lot, for little gained.

“A lot of design compromises were made especially to give the Marine Corps the STOVL capability which, by the way, they’ve never used in combat,” he said. “And who says the Marines need a fast jet in combat?” said McPeak, now chairman of Ethicspoint Inc., a consulting firm in Lake Oswego, Oregon.

Tom Burbage, a former Navy pilot who led Lockheed’s JSF team, was at the company’s Fort Worth, Texas plant on Oct. 26, 2001, when the Pentagon picked the company’s proposal over Boeing’s.

‘Long Program’

“We all knew it’d be a long program and it’d be a challenge to get all the development done,” Burbage, now Lockheed’s executive vice president for the F-35 program, said in an interview. “But I think we’re definitely behind” by a few years compared with the 2001 plan, he said.

At the start, development costs were estimated at about $34.4 billion and overall program acquisition was $233 billion, according to the GAO. Within a year, the Navy decided it needed fewer of the aircraft-carrier model and cut its requirement by 409 jets, reducing the total U.S. order to 2,457 from 2,866.

Lockheed, meanwhile, expanded its engineering team in the first year to accommodate the seven countries that signed up as partners, in addition to the U.S. and the U.K., which began the program, Burbage said. These included Australia, Turkey, Italy, the Netherlands, Canada, Denmark and Norway, and the aerospace industry in each country is a supplier to the program.

Rapid Manufacturing

Anticipating production orders for as many as 1,200 U.S. jets by 2016, Lockheed prepared for “rapid manufacturing,” Burbage said. Lockheed’s subcontractors include Northrop Grumman Corp. (NOC), BAE Systems Plc of London. The engine is made by United Technologies Corp. (UTX)’s Pratt & Whitney unit.

Current plans project 400 airplanes on order by 2016, whereas Lockheed now has contracts for 98 jets and is negotiating for the next production lot, he said.

In 2003, estimates based on the Air Force designs showed that the Marine Corps version may “miss the weight projections,” and the Pentagon called for advancing work on the Marine plane and using that to improve the design on the two other models, Burbage said. The Marine jet needed to shed about 3,000 pounds, he said.

In April 2004, the company “stopped, shut down our supply chain and went into an 18-month design phase” resulting in a complete redesign of the jet’s wings, Burbage said.

Remedial Work

“After two-plus years designing a plane, building staff, and reaching a spend rate of $300 million a month, going back and doing remedial work on STOVL was extremely punitive to the program,” said John Young, the Pentagon’s top weapons buyer in the Bush administration. That, he said, “eliminated any hope of developing three planes for the cost of one.”

The program required a new “bill of materials, brand new parts and starting some new suppliers,” Burbage said. Development costs rose 30 percent to $44.8 billion and projected overall cost to $244.8 billion.

That kind of upheaval was avoidable, had Boeing and Lockheed been asked to fly prototypes of their designs instead of “proof of principle demonstrators,” said Young, now head of JY Strategies LLC, an Arlington, Virginia-based consulting firm.

In 2007, the Pentagon under Young’s direction ordered a “midcourse risk reduction.” That move cut back test planes and testing regimen to save money, Michael Sullivan, director of acquisition and sourcing management at the Government Accountability Office said in an e-mail. Still, overall costs rose another 13.7 percent to $278.5 billion.

Fresh Estimates

In 2009, after President Barack Obama’s administration took office, fresh estimates found that the average procurement unit cost of the plane had increased 58 percent, to $79 million in 2002 dollars, triggering another restructure of the program, according to the GAO.

The Pentagon in June 2010 estimated the program’s total cost to be about $382 billion, taking into account an extension of development phase of the program, additional tests and delayed production.

Program officials were “aware of these risks as early as 2001, but chose to accept optimistic assumptions,” Sullivan said. The promise of an affordable jet was “miscalculated.”

In 2010, then Defense Secretary Robert Gates withheld $614 million from Lockheed and tied it to specific goals. He also put the Marine variant on probation for two years to improve the plane’s reliability.

More Testing

Last year’s restructuring added about 2,200 more test flights and as many as 10,000 test points, Burbage said. The additional time for tests may influence lawmakers and defense officials into thinking “we shouldn’t build more planes in higher quantities until I get that testing done,” Burbage said.

The restructure and subsequent tests have shown “no major or insurmountable technical problems,” Vice Admiral Mark Skinner, the Navy’s top procurement officer told Congress yesterday. Lockheed was ahead by 9 percent on its test goals, Burbage said. Since tests began in December 2006, all three variants had flown 1,412 times, he said.

Now, the program is heading into a global budget storm, which adds uncertainty to the order outlook as lawmakers and officials in the U.S. and allied nations seek to cut spending.

“We do now have a family of three airplanes that are unique and highly capable,” Burbage said. “Our biggest challenge now moves from the technical to the political.”
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
It is common duration for this type of ship no?

Dixmude LHD, latest (3rd) of Mistral class:
Laid down: 18 April 2009
Launched: 18 December 2010
Commissioned: Expected May 2011
The building is fast, but doable given how she is being constructed.

I think that only six months between launching and commissioning is a very short period. I would have expected to see at least 12 months if not 18.
 

navyreco

Senior Member
Well it is the 3rd of its class, French Navy probably knows this type pretty well now.

BPC Dixmude during its first sail from St Nazaire (shipyard) to Toulon (French Navy base)
(hi rez)
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Mistral class quarters:
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During Lybia operations
pointdesituationn431.jpg
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Well it is the 3rd of its class, French Navy probably knows this type pretty well now.
Having more of class will definitely help...but the crew is going to largely be new and have to learn and get acquainted with the vessel. Just seems fast to me.

For example, the US has a lot more Wasp class vessels (eight)...but I do not believe even the later ones ever were turned over then run through all quals and startup and commissioned in six months.
 
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