Air war: F18s vs. PLAAF

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
hainan operates su-27s and j-8s. although the exact number on hainan is not disclosed, there are 75 su-27s said to be in that general area. a few dozen j-8s are in the area. i would expect they be sent after awcs, and the su-27s against f-18s.

american awacs aircraft pose a serious threat to the j-8s. :D
they might try to pull off the ep-3 move.

hainan_006.jpg

i doubt these would pose any serious problem the the f-18s, but the runways are clearly capable of handling larger jets
 

Sea Dog

Junior Member
VIP Professional
This whole thread is funny. Because the USA will not fight this scenario like what's presented here. While I know the Hornet can dominate anything fielded by PLAAF, the PLAAF could make the work bloody for the Hornet.....especially iun this manner. But I just don't think the USA would attack Chinese targets in the manner specified here. This method gives the Chinese a chance to reduce US naval air power. I'm not going to get into specifics here, but the goal would be to eliminate or reduce command and control, communications, Chinese air sortie rates, and logistics(primarily fuel support). This is done with a variety of weapons and platform strategies. Not just F/A-18 combined with Sentry coverage and electronic support.
 

tphuang

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Staff member
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BrotherofSnake said:
lol I heard when the EP-3 returned to the U.S. it had a kill mark painted by the cockpit.
meh, and China did what it does the best. deny, deny, deny, lol.

I think this sentence by IDont is perfect "Currently, there is NO PLAAF aircraft that can match the F-18 EF hornet's jack of all trades but master of none capability."

My view is that while J-10 cannot beat hornet in many areas, but it has certain advantages in air superiority. Although the new super hornet that's coming out in 06 with APG-79 is going to be pretty troublesome.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
a small force of f-18s is not going to survive j-11 attack.

I have a hard time seeing how a force of fully loaded F-18s launched from carriers in blue water (to avoid the SSKs hunting in litorral waters) will have sufficient range and loiter time to attack targets in the Chinese mainland.

F-14s may have the range.

F-15Es I believe.

B-1Bs and B-2s are made for it.

But the Bug?

Some people here don't know how far the littoral waters go far from the Asian continent. The Asian continental shelves jut out much farther than the American continental shelves. We're talking the waters much west of Japan and Taiwan here. The farther you go out and station your carrier from the nasty SSKs with the 220km Klub missiles, the less range and loiter time the Hornets have. I don't care how good your aircraft is (and I doubt it's really any better than the Flankers), if you don't have the fuel for the fight, don't bother.

An issue about decoys. The Hornets may be escorted by decoys while carrying the AGM-88 Harms to their targets which I don't suppose because of fuel limitations, aren't going to reach that far deep. Have you ever considered that the ground targets may have decoys too?

Also a good number of SAMs are not reliant on radar. They include the commonly used HQ-7 which uses infrared and TV backup guidance.

AGM-88 vs. S-300? My bets is on the S-300. With a 200km range on the 48N6E1 vs 52km on the AGM-88, the S-300 will have a first shoot capability. The Bug will already be tracked and have a missile on its tail before it gets into range to use the AGM-88. And even if you do fire the missile, what chances you won't hit a decoy? Also the S-300 radar systems is redundant. If you take out the search radar, the fire control radar is still seperate and will still track you and guide its missile.

In fact, much of the PLA missile system is both redundant and mobile. The commonly used HQ-2 has four sensor posts and is networked to other arrays. You have to take all of them down simultaneously and more, before you can even stop them from shooting. Then you also have to deal with the layered defenses and SAMs that are not dependent on radar or have their own self contained radar systems.

The use of passive antiradiation FT-2000s (based on the HQ-9) and FT-2000A (based on the common HQ-2) throws a wild card. YOu can't find them with your HARMs, but they can find your jammers,

I got far more faith on the F-117 and the F-22 to take out the PLAAF and air defenses than the Bug. Sorry.

On other things,

I don't believe that Backfires with Kitchens can take out a CBVG. Those Kitchens are old missiles, and the USN has been testing and training their systems to defend against such missiles for decades now. Best chance for China is to do something truly radical, like terminally guided SSMs.

Oh, and there is nothing worth destroying in Hainan either.
 

Totoro

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So we agree that USN wouldn't even try to use f18s in this kind of scenario? If so, then we also agree that US would first have to use its cruise missiles and f22s and f117s and b2s for more direct bombing runs. Only after US weakens china's defence with those, would it venture out to use f18s and f15s (from okinawa or other places) for strike missions. So how much time would US need to assemble all those forces in the area (a month? two months?) and how much time would it need to weaken the defences for other aircraft to be used? (a week? a month?)

How bout this unrealistic scenario then, it should play slightly better for the US: the said lone carrier detects a large force coming at it. it numbers some 60 targets. Does it launch the f18s to intercept or does it wait to see if there's any further waves of attackers coming behind them? How many does it launch? Does it order its forward e2s to shut odd their radars? Does it order for the e2 to start pulling back towards the carrier?
 

Sea Dog

Junior Member
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Totoro said:
So we agree that USN wouldn't even try to use f18s in this kind of scenario? If so, then we also agree that US would first have to use its cruise missiles and f22s and f117s and b2s for more direct bombing runs. Only after US weakens china's defence with those, would it venture out to use f18s and f15s (from okinawa or other places) for strike missions. So how much time would US need to assemble all those forces in the area (a month? two months?) and how much time would it need to weaken the defences for other aircraft to be used? (a week? a month?)

No, F/A-18's would be used. But not like what's presented here. They are but a piece of the puzzle. Cruise missiles and other bombers would also play a role. Just like Chinese defense wouldn't just rely on J-8's and J-11's. There is the Integrated Air Defense network of aircraft and SAM's. Plus any recon or intelligence assets trying to ascertain enemy strengths, positions, and movements. This scenario is based on only one component of any battle scenario here and doesn't take into account alot of stuff.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
That's all nice but would you (or someone else) give the alternative. Supply this thread with a scenario you think is realistic. That is what i am asking for. You know where are US bases in the area, if not we'll list them out together, list the available aircraft, we'll brainstorm through how many additional aircraft can there be in those bases, how many of which types can US supply, etc. Please don't just say what is not possible to other people's ideas, offer some solution of your own - what IS possible. I'll gladly go along with it and incorporate it in this thread.
 

rommel

Bow Seat
VIP Professional
USN, USMC and USAF base in the Area

USN

FLTACT Sasebo, Japan
COMPHIBRON-11
USS BELLEAU WOOD (LHA-3) (retired, no ??)
USS JUNEAU (LPD-10)
USS GERMANTOWN (LSD-42)
USS FORT MCHENRY (LSD-43)
USS GUARDIAN (MCM-5)
USS PATRIOT (MCM-7)
USS SAFEGUARD (AFS-50)

NAF Atsugi, Japan
VAQ 136
VAW-115
VF 154
VFA 27
VFA 192
VFA 195
VS-21

Yokosuka, Japan
USS Blue Ridge (LCC-19)
USS Chancellorsville (CG-62)
USS Curtis Wilbur (DDG-54)
USS Cushing (DD-985)
USS Gary (FFG-51)
USS John S. McCain (DDG-56)
USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63)
USS Mobile Bay (CG-53)
USS O'Brien (DD-975)
USS Vandegrift (FFG-48)
USS Vincennes (CG-49)

COMFLEACTS Chinhae, South Korea
It's a command center...

USAF
Kadena AB, Japan
12th Fighter Squadron
17th Special Operations Squadron
17th Special Operations Squadron
18th Aerospace Medicine Squadron
18th Civil Engineer Group
18th Civil Engineer Squadron
18th Communication Squadron
18th Contracting Squadron
18th Dental Squadron
18th Logistics Support Squadron
18th Maintenance Squadron
18th Medical Group
18th Medical Operations Squadron
18th Mission Support Squadron
18th Munitions Maintenance Squadron
18th Operations Group
18th Operations Support Squadron
18th Security Forces Squadron
18th Services Squadron
18th Supply Squadron
18th Transportation Squadron
18th Wing
1st Special Operations Squadro
320th Special Tactics Squadron
33d Rescue Squadron
353D Maintenance Support Squadron
353D Operations Support Squadron
353D Special Operations Group
372nd TRS Det 15 (AETC)
390th Intelligence Squadon
44th Fighter Squadron
623rd Air Control Section
633rd Air Mobility Squadron
649 th Combat Logistics
67th Fighter Squadron
718th Civil Engineer Squadron
82 D Reconnaissance Squadron(ACC)
909th Air Refueling Squadron
961st Airborne Warning & Control Squadron

Misawa AB, Japan
35th Fighter Wing
35th Support Group Commanding
301 Intelligence Squadron
U.S. Naval Air Facility Misawa
U.S. Naval Security Group
750th M.I Company (U.S. Army)
Company E Marines
3rd Space Surveillance Squadron

Yokota AB, Japan
374th Airlift Wing
374th Logistics Group
374th Medical Group
374th Operations Group
374th Support Group

Kunsan AB, South Korea
8TH FIGHTER WING, PACIFIC AIR FORCE

8TH LOGISTICS GROUP
8th Logistics Support Squadron
8th Maintenance Squadron
8th Supply Squadron
8th Transportation Squadron

8TH OPERATIONS GROUP
8th Operations Support Squadron
35th Fighter Squadron
80th Fighter Squadron

8TH SUPPORT GROUP
8th Civil Engineer
8th Communications Squadron
8th Mission Support Squadron
8th Security Forces Squadron
8th Services Squadron
8th MEDICAL GROUP
8th Medical Operations Squadron
8th Medical Support Squadron

AFKN DET 15, OL-B
ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS
ARMY CONTRACTING COMMAND KOREA
DEFENSE AUTOMATED PRINTING SERVICE (DAPS)
DEFENSE COMMISSARY AGENCY
AIR FORCE OFFICE OF SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS
25th TRANSPORTATION BATTALION

U.S. ARMY PATRIOT UNITS 1/43 Air Defense Artillery (Patriot)
Echo Battery
Foxtrot Battery

Osan AB, South Korea
7th AIR FORCE
607TH AIR INTELLIGENCE GROUP
607TH AIR OPERATIONS GROUP*
607TH AIR SUPPORT OPERATIONS GROUP
51st Fighter Wing
51st SUPPORT GROUP
51st OPERATIONS GROUP
51st Medical Group
51st Logistics Group

USMC
MCAS Iwakuni, Japan
MAG-12 Marine Aircraft Group 12
MALS-12 Marine Aviation Log. Support
MWSS-171 Marine Wing Support
VMFA-212

Camp S.D. Butler, Japan
III Marine Expeditionary Force
3rd Marine Division
1st Marine Air Wing
 

Roger604

Senior Member
Totoro said:
So we agree that USN wouldn't even try to use f18s in this kind of scenario? If so, then we also agree that US would first have to use its cruise missiles and f22s and f117s and b2s for more direct bombing runs. Only after US weakens china's defence with those, would it venture out to use f18s and f15s (from okinawa or other places) for strike missions. So how much time would US need to assemble all those forces in the area (a month? two months?) and how much time would it need to weaken the defences for other aircraft to be used? (a week? a month?)

How bout this unrealistic scenario then, it should play slightly better for the US: the said lone carrier detects a large force coming at it. it numbers some 60 targets. Does it launch the f18s to intercept or does it wait to see if there's any further waves of attackers coming behind them? How many does it launch? Does it order its forward e2s to shut odd their radars? Does it order for the e2 to start pulling back towards the carrier?

Are cruise missiles a threat? I am under the impression that Tomahawk cruise missiles are nothing that cheap SAM systems can't handle (assuming the cruise missiles are shot at protected assets rather than unprotected targets). They're slow and they can be spotted far away from their intended target.

Of course, if they were used in conjunction with F-22 escorted B-2's that would be serious threat.
 
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