Air war: F18s vs. PLAAF

Seacraft said:

So do I really think a flight of F18s could walk into PRC airspace? Yes and No, and here is why (again, based on my non-professional research over the past 10-15 years). Ground based radar still cannot see THROUGH the earth. OTH radars can but that is a different animal and it still cannot guide a round for the 300, right?

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What in God's name are you talking about? F-18's radars can't see through the earth either. So it won't know where the S-300 is until it pops up over the horizon. When it does pop-up, the F-18 is tracked and destroyed.

Seacraft said:

But No country has enough long range - high quality SAMs to be everywhere, all the time. So yes, under some circumstances, I feel "I" can take F-18s, into PRC airspace, under certain conditions, and start popping off some of your S-300 sites.

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What??? You have no idea where these SAM sites are. Are psychics going to be flying these F-18's. When the F-18's can see the S-300's, the S-300's can see the F-18's too. Besides, it's a lot easier to isolate and track a target in the clear blue sky than to track a target among ground clutter.

Clear advantage for the SAM.

Seacraft said:

A small force of F18s could kick the crap out of a comparably sized force of J11s when the conditions warrant and vice versa. If the 18s have AWACS Support and the J-11s don't, it could be a turkey shoot.

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What US AWACS are you talking about? Does the EP-3 fly at supersonic speeds for an attack mission? I assure you, the only side that will have an AWACS will be China and there will be many AWACS of many varieties.

Seacraft said:

So now, the range you can guide at, after seeing me, is comparable to where I can target you with HARM or perhaps decoy then Harm or Jam and Harm. Lots of options, lots of possibilites, no one soultion truly clear cut over another.

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Now you're getting somewhere, at least you admit there's a difference between detection range and tracking range. Those F-18's will be detected by AWACS long before they wander into Chinese airspace (since the AWACS radars are still more powerful than the F-18's) and will be intercepted by J-8's before S-300's play any role whatsoever. And yes, China has enough AWACS to cover the entire eastern coastline.

Seacraft said:

As for the Y8 J - if I'm the US Navy, and we are in battle, do you think a Y8J is going to get withtin dectecion range of my ships? Negative, it will be fish food long before it got close enough. Now on a peactime footing, sure, it could venture 800Km+ offshore.

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Have you forgotten (since you wrote the above) that there is a difference between tracking and detection? USN ship's radars aren't OTH either, so it has to rely on E-3's. Y-8's can DETECT the location of your E-3's while loitering outside of TRACKING range and scramble squadrons of JH-7's armed with anti-ship missiles escorted by J-11's.

A swarm of those things descending on a lone CVBG is going to make it very bad day for the USN.

adeptitus said:

A comment on "detection range" of SAM systems - when the manufacturer claims "400km detection range", there should be a little dlsciamer that reads "at target altitutde from xxx meters to xxxx meters, frontal approach". If the target aircraft is flying at low altitude, the detection and lock-on range is reduced.

Please see following example:

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Self-propelled Mount 9A310M1

* Max radar detection range:
o (target at 3,000 m altitude) 85 km
o (target at 100 m altitude (MTI mode)) 35 km
o (target at 30 m altitude (MTI mode and in crest angles of zero degrees)) 23km

* Max radar lock on range:
o (target at 3,000 m altitude) 70 km
o (target at 100 m altitude (MTI mode)) 30 km
o (target at 30 m altitude (MTI mode)) 20km
o (hovering helicopter at 30 m altitude) 8-10 km

* Min radar tracking range: 3,000 m

* Max target speed:
o (approaching) 830 m/s
o (receding) 300 m/s

* Min target radial velocity:
o (less than 2° target elevation) 50 m/s
o (greater than 2° target elevation) unlimited

* Max effective engagement range:
o (approaching/receding target) 30-32 km
o (crossing target) 22 km

* Min effective engagement range: 3 km
* Max effective engagement altitude: 22,000 m
* Min effective engagement altitude: 15 m
* Reaction time: 26 s
* Time into action/time to close down: 5 min
* Max road speed: 65 km/h
* Range: 500 km
* Combat weight: 32,340 kg
* Length: 9.3 m
* Width: 3.25 m
* Height: 7.72 m
* Armament: 4x SA-11 (9M38M1) missiles

================

The AGM-88 HARM missile is known to have effective range of >90km. Against a SAM system that has manufacturer-claimed detection range of "400km" under optium conditions, it's not unreasonable to think a low-flying strike aircraft could sneak in and unload a couple HARM missiles at it. However from the Kosovo war, we know the Serbians were either smart or learned from Iraqis, and found ways to spoof the HARM missile:

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"When compared to NATO's other main SEAD weapon, the HARM missile, the following comparison has been made.
* The HARM was successful, has sold in massive quantities, is still in production and is being constantly improved.
* The ALARM is no longer in production, used only by the RAF and has probably never made a profit.

However the British Aviation magazine Air Forces Monthly reports that a senior serving aircrew officer drew the following comparison,
* The HARM is cheap and cheerful enough to overwhelm an enemy's air defence, but is easily defeated by a clever SAM operator.
* ALARM is a stunning weapon with a superb record. The same magazine reports that during the Kosovo War the Germans and Americans failed to destroy one emitter with over 100 HARM missiles, but the RAF destroyed the same emitter with a single ALARM."

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Whatever your god is Adepitus, may he/she/it bless you!

And yes, imagine mating the Alarms wonderful traits (like loitering, dang) with some of those from the Harm?? Hopefully the next gen harm will have some of that (but I'll leave the pipe dreamin' for others)...

MIGleader said:

a group of entering f-18s will not have awacs, that would completely ruin any chances of the attack going in undetected. now, if the fighting is over taiwan strait, the j-11s 100 km radar will have the same effectiveness as the f-18s 150km range apg-73. now, if this is in the future, the j-11s eill probably be feilding th kjl-3 with a 160 km range. thne hte j-11s manuverabiliy will let it kick hornet a$$!! a j-11 could do a pugachev cobra(if chinese pilots have trained to do it), pulling under a hornet, and shooting the bottom of the hornet.

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Mig, yer killing me :rofl: :rofl: - my unprofessional diagnosis of your condition is Optical Rectumitis... Hey - like you, I'm only having fun :roll:

ML - a group of 18s may or may not have an awacs. It may be part of deception, feighnt, and you are missing the whole tactical picture., But when I am coming, OK to call you so I can see you do the cobra?

Yes, I believe that with comparable quality pilots, a dog fighting 18E and a Flanker derivitive is going to be REAL exciting for the hornet driver and is probably 1.5 or 2-1 for the Flanker but does it really get to that?

MIGleader said:

a group of entering f-18s will not have awacs, that would completely ruin any chances of the attack going in undetected. now, if the fighting is over taiwan strait, the j-11s 100 km radar will have the same effectiveness as the f-18s 150km range apg-73. now, if this is in the future, the j-11s eill probably be feilding th kjl-3 with a 160 km range. thne hte j-11s manuverabiliy will let it kick hornet a$$!! a j-11 could do a pugachev cobra(if chinese pilots have trained to do it), pulling under a hornet, and shooting the bottom of the hornet.

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Well, if I'm not wrong, the USN have embarked AWAC onboard of each CVBG, 4 E-2C+ Hawkeye (or Hawkeye 2000 ) per carrier if I'm not mistaken... Those AWAC combined with the AEGIS defence net will be able to provide air superiority around the CVBG. In 1986, AEGIS combined with E-2C protect the US Fleet who was attacking Libyan terrorist-related target, made 153 intercept of the Libyan Air Force. In fact, never, a Libyan Air Force aircraft was able to move into fire position before being intercept or lock by the USN. This was in 1986, the USN didn't have the AEGIS Baseline 7.0 and 7.1, the E-2C was still with the AN/APS-138 while the E-2C+ have the AN/APS-145, so imagine now.... Each E-2C can maintain all-weather patrols and track automatically and simultaneously more than 2000 targets. The E-2C is also capable of detecting targets anywhere within a six-million-cubic-miles airspace area and tracking all maritime traffic on a 150,000 square miles surface in the same time. (The 1973 E-2 version has a AN/APS-125, and have a radar radius of 370km, but the USN have upgrade most of the E-2'sradar to AN/APS-145, which is far more sophisticated... 300miles or 480km)

FACTSHEET BY NORTHROP GRUMMAN
With its distinctive 24-foot-diameter rotating radome and more than 12,000 pounds of sophisticated electronic equipment, the E-2C can monitor six million cubic miles of airspace and more than 150,000 square miles of ocean surface for the presence of aircraft, missiles, ships and fixed targets.

Operating from altitude above 25,000 feet, the Hawkeye extends the radar horizon by overcoming the line-of-sight limitations imposed on ground-based and shipboard radar systems by the earth's curvature and mountainous terrain. With its Lockheed Martin AN/APS-145 radar system, the Hawkeye can automatically detect, identify and track targets at ranges exceeding 300 miles (480km). Hawkeye’s passive detection system clandestinely detects and classifies targets at distances beyond radar limits.

The long-range, high-resolution radar, working with IFF and passive detection systems through associated computers, not only develops a picture of the operating environment, but also provides real-time information to air operations and other command centers. The E-2C also controls friendly aircraft for pinpoint interceptions through high-speed data links. The system can maintain more than 2,000 tracks simultaneously. Track data include course, speed, altitude and identification of all radar, IFF and passive targets in the computer files.

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Pugachev Cobra, LOL, think a little bit, even that your pilot are trained to do it, in most dogfight situation, your pilot will not do it. Why ?? Because first of all, it's mentally challenging to slow down your plane when you know that the ennemy could easily shot a short range IR seeking AIM-9L on you, even worst, I don't know if you know it, but the Cobra make the J-11/Su-27/30 more targetable for IR seeking missile since its burn more fuel and that also mean more heat from the engine... Not always bright...

Roger604 said:

What in God's name are you talking about? F-18's radars can't see through the earth either. So it won't know where the S-300 is until it pops up over the horizon. When it does pop-up, the F-18 is tracked and destroyed.



What??? You have no idea where these SAM sites are. Are psychics going to be flying these F-18's. When the F-18's can see the S-300's, the S-300's can see the F-18's too. Besides, it's a lot easier to isolate and track a target in the clear blue sky than to track a target among ground clutter.

Clear advantage for the SAM.



What US AWACS are you talking about? Does the EP-3 fly at supersonic speeds for an attack mission? I assure you, the only side that will have an AWACS will be China and there will be many AWACS of many varieties.



Now you're getting somewhere, at least you admit there's a difference between detection range and tracking range. Those F-18's will be detected by AWACS long before they wander into Chinese airspace (since the AWACS radars are still more powerful than the F-18's) and will be intercepted by J-8's before S-300's play any role whatsoever. And yes, China has enough AWACS to cover the entire eastern coastline.



Have you forgotten (since you wrote the above) that there is a difference between tracking and detection? USN ship's radars aren't OTH either, so it has to rely on E-3's. Y-8's can DETECT the location of your E-3's while loitering outside of TRACKING range and scramble squadrons of JH-7's armed with anti-ship missiles escorted by J-11's.

A swarm of those things descending on a lone CVBG is going to make it very bad day for the USN.

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Okay at the risked of having another how to sink a carrier debate I will have to answer. This is an interesting scenario in that a carrier group is the one on offense and PLAAF is on defence.

USN has done so many SAM suppression missions in the past. Known SAM and radar sites on two or 3 different potential flight path will be hit with TLAM fired from the new SSGN. Then decoy drones that look like attackin F-18 will be lauched, this is followed by 2-4 planes in a wild weasel role flying low with support from a prowler several hundred miles away. The moment the SAM lights up, prowler detects and gives info in REAL TIME to the wild weasel. Wild Weasel pops up and fires HARM. SAM destroyed.


As for AEW, CHina has yet to put an operational squadron in service. Within 3-5 years this will happen. Training and operational exercise are required for the Fighters and AWACS to effective function as a whole.

The primary radar system housed in the radome is the electronically steered phased-array (ESA) developed by Nanjing-based 14 institute. Unlike the Russian A-50 or U.S. E-3, which rotate their rotodomes to give a 360 degree coverage, the KJ-2000's radar antenna does not rotate. Instead, three ESA antenna modules are placed in a triangular configuration inside the round radome to provide a 360 degree coverage.

The Chinese-made radar system could be similar in design to the IAI Phalcon, but may not be as capable as the latter. The Phalcon system could track up to 60~100 targets at the same time and guide a dozen fighters in all-weather, day and night operations.


As for the E-2, the carrier borne AWACs, it has a far greater radar range, can track more targets, battle proven (Bekaa Valley, GW1, Serbia, GW2) and is integrated with AEGIS. he E-2C can monitor 6 million cubic miles of airspace and more than 150,000 square miles of ocean surface for the presence of aircraft, missiles, ships, and fixed targets.


* AN/APS-145 Radar - Provides fully automatic overland detection and tracking, and significantly extends the radar detection limits with a range in excess of 300 miles. Advantages include reduced operator workload, effective elimination of blind speeds and an extremely stable surface plot.
* Improved Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) - Extends IFF range to radar limits, enables multi-mode simultaneous operation and incorporates an auto jam strobe to alert operators to jamming in the IFF band.
* Enhanced High Speed Processor - To handle the increased radar track file and required expansion of display symbol capacity, a high-speed parallel processor is incorporated into the mission computer which expands the active track file by 400% over Group 0. The enhanced high-speed processor equipped L-304 computer allows the E-2C the capability to process more than 2000 tracks.
* Enhanced Main Display Units - Enhanced tactical displays provide each operator with an improved visual representation of the total tactical picture through expansion of symbology display capacity by 1000%, multicolor display, map overlays of geographic features, zoom capability, and auxiliary data display windows.
* Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS) - Incorporates several anti-jam features to allow uninterrupted voice and data communications, also enhancing interoperability with platforms such as the USAF AWACS and F-15. Equipped with the Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS), the E-2C Group II is the cornerstone for fleet and joint service employment.
* Global Positioning System (GPS)- The Carrier Aircraft Inertial Navigation System (CAINS II) is augmented by GPS to enhance navigation and data link reference accuracy, which are key to tactical operations. The E-2C Group II is the first carrier-based fleet aircraft configured with the Global Positioning System (GPS), which allows the aircraft to use satellite networks to instantaneously calculate aircraft position to within a few meters. This system greatly enhances the E-2C Group II's navigation and data link accuracy.

Seacraft said:

ML - a group of 18s may or may not have an awacs. It may be part of deception, feighnt, and you are missing the whole tactical picture., But when I am coming, OK to call you so I can see you do the cobra?

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How can an AWACS aid in a strike mission unless the F-18's are going at the same speed as the AWACS. Otherwise, the AWACS will fall behind and it'll be a sitting duck. Of course, you can say that the AWACS will be protected by ships or whatever else comes to mind. But then it wouldn't be a quick strike by a group of F-18's you're describing in the first place but an all out frontal assault.

IDonT said:

USN has done so many SAM suppression missions in the past. Known SAM and radar sites on two or 3 different potential flight path will be hit with TLAM fired from the new SSGN. Then decoy drones that look like attackin F-18 will be lauched, this is followed by 2-4 planes in a wild weasel role flying low with support from a prowler several hundred miles away. The moment the SAM lights up, prowler detects and gives info in REAL TIME to the wild weasel. Wild Weasel pops up and fires HARM. SAM destroyed.

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Well the last sentence is a bit misleading. It's nice to think you can fire at the enemy without the enemy firing back. But wild weasel is likely to get shot down either before or after it launches its HARM. And you don't even mention the anti-air missiles and guns used to protect the S-300's.

"Known SAM and radar sites"? They're mobile! The US has no idea where they're going to be. Firing blindly with cruise missiles will not be a viable strategy.

Roger604 said:

What in God's name are you talking about? F-18's radars can't see through the earth either. So it won't know where the S-300 is until it pops up over the horizon. When it does pop-up, the F-18 is tracked and destroyed.

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Yes, I suppose if I am stupid enough to fly in straight and level with my radar on. What if I have used a mechanism/tactic to dupe and locate your stuff?

What??? You have no idea where these SAM sites are. Are psychics going to be flying these F-18's. When the F-18's can see the S-300's, the S-300's can see the F-18's too. Besides, it's a lot easier to isolate and track a target in the clear blue sky than to track a target among ground clutter.

Clear advantage for the SAM.

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See above

What US AWACS are you talking about? Does the EP-3 fly at supersonic speeds for an attack mission? I assure you, the only side that will have an AWACS will be China and there will be many AWACS of many varieties.

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Sometimes I'll have AWACS and sometimes I wont

Now you're getting somewhere, at least you admit there's a difference between detection range and tracking range. Those F-18's will be detected by AWACS long before they wander into Chinese airspace (since the AWACS radars are still more powerful than the F-18's) and will be intercepted by J-8's before S-300's play any role whatsoever. And yes, China has enough AWACS to cover the entire eastern coastline.

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Quality AWACS flyiing around the clock???

Have you forgotten (since you wrote the above) that there is a difference between tracking and detection? USN ship's radars aren't OTH either, so it has to rely on E-3's. Y-8's can DETECT the location of your E-3's while loitering outside of TRACKING range and scramble squadrons of JH-7's armed with anti-ship missiles escorted by J-11's.

A swarm of those things descending on a lone CVBG is going to make it very bad day for the USN.

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OK, when we have this fictional battle, I'll put my carrier borne E3 (damn thing takes up a lot of room on the deck) up so you can track it and come in with your JH7s and J11s. What platform is going to carry your ARMs? Is your AWACS coming too? Pretty Please?

Roger604 said:

How can an AWACS aid in a strike mission unless the F-18's are going at the same speed as the AWACS. Otherwise, the AWACS will fall behind and it'll be a sitting duck. Of course, you can say that the AWACS will be protected by ships or whatever else comes to mind. But then it wouldn't be a quick strike by a group of F-18's you're describing in the first place but an all out frontal assault.

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The AWACS radar has enough range that it does not have to accompany a strike package. Via modern datalinks,what it sees, the strike packages sees in real time. Modern real time datalinks are superb force multipliers for the USN. It sits on a circular patrol route away from hostile airspace and protected by its own CAP. Since it is a radar plane, it is very hard to surprise.

Prowlers on the other hand do sometimes accompany a strike package for jamming and wild weasel roles.

Roger604 said:

Well the last sentence is a bit misleading. It's nice to think you can fire at the enemy without the enemy firing back. But wild weasel is likely to get shot down either before or after it launches its HARM. And you don't even mention the anti-air missiles used to protect the S-300's.

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HARM stands for High Speed Anti-Radiation Missile, it will hit your radar site before its missiles get the wild weasels or you turn off your radar and thus breaking your missile lock on the aircraft. Either way your sam is suppressed.

How many of your SAM and radar sites are mobile? The fixed once will die first and a combination of E-8 radar and sattelite recon will get the others.

IDonT said:

The AWACS radar has enough range that it does not have to accompany a strike package. Via modern datalinks,what it sees, the strike packages sees in real time. Modern real time datalinks are superb force multipliers for the USN. It sits on a circular patrol route away from hostile airspace and protected by its own CAP. Since it is a radar plane, it is very hard to surprise. .

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If the E-2 is safe, that means it's too far away to be useful. The F-18's are going to be pretty much on their own. And if the E-2 is close but protected by other assets, then the question is how do you get these assets in so close without getting torpedoed by an SSK.

IDonT said:

HARM stands for High Speed Anti-Radiation Missile, it will hit your radar site before its missiles get the wild weasels or you turn off your radar and thus breaking your missile lock on the aircraft. Either way your sam is suppressed.

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Who gets who first? The S-300 radar is plenty powerful. Don't forget that the ground installations have a variety of AA missiles and guns to give it an advantage.

IDonT said:

How many of your SAM and radar sites are mobile? The fixed once will die first and a combination of E-8 radar and sattelite recon will get the others.

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PLA SAM's are wheeled vehicles.

It's obvious you vest great faith in US radars. But it doesn't matter whether you're talking about E-8 or EP-3 or E-2C, if China's radar assets can DETECT your radar assets while remaining outside of your TRACKING range, you will lose. Interceptors will head for your planes and unload their missiles when they find it.

Satellite recon??? Are you going to wait for weeks while the satellites luckily finds itself in the right place to discover a SAM site?

IDonT said:

The AWACS radar has enough range that it does not have to accompany a strike package. Via modern datalinks,what it sees, the strike packages sees in real time. Modern real time datalinks are superb force multipliers for the USN. It sits on a circular patrol route away from hostile airspace and protected by its own CAP. Since it is a radar plane, it is very hard to surprise.

Prowlers on the other hand do sometimes accompany a strike package for jamming and wild weasel roles.



HARM stands for High Speed Anti-Radiation Missile, it will hit your radar site before its missiles get the wild weasels or you turn off your radar and thus breaking your missile lock on the aircraft. Either way your sam is suppressed.

How many of your SAM and radar sites are mobile? The fixed once will die first and a combination of E-8 radar and sattelite recon will get the others.

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As I said previously, there are things like tor-m1 and HQ-7 whose sole job is to defend the long range SAMs. Each of these type of missiles have hit rates against incoming missiles (they may not be 100%, but enough attempts would give good interception rates). There are also plenty of mobile SAMs like Yitian and FB-6A which helps interception. You didn't think the S-300 and HQ-9 are just going to be sitting ducks for HARM, did you?

As for Chinese ARM, YJ-91 can be carried by JH-7, flankers and J-10. HQ-9 is supposed to also have anti-radiaiton version. Check the articles on FT-2000 (the AWACS killer).

As for AWACS, there are 3 identified KJ-2000 at this moment. The first bunch according to most sources is 4, so we can expect there to be about that many. As for the Phalcon tracking part, I seriously question that number. Even Y-8J can track 100 aerial targets, it's hard to imagine KJ-2000 not being able to track more. Considering that PLAAF turned down the A-50 AWACS which can track a maximum of 300 targets, because they didn't fit PLAAF's requirements. I would think KJ-2000 would deliver similar tracking numbers if not more. I think China has been training on these AWACS for the last 2 years. They should officially join service next year. The balance beam ones should join service soon also.

I'm starting to see a failure to communicate...

Roger604 said:

If the E-2 is safe, that means it's too far away to be useful. The F-18's are going to be pretty much on their own. And if the E-2 is close but protected by other assets, then the question is how do you get these assets in so close without getting torpedoed by an SSK.

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How is the SSK going to find the E2/Carrier?? Say the SSK throws up it's ESM (assuming it has one that can differentiate what an E2 is) and detects an E2 radar somehwere, Oh I dunno, in an easterly direction. How does the SSK travely stealthily at 3 knots so it can sneak up on the carrier going at 20+, somehow get into torpedo range (past the screen ships and helos) :coffee: ? Where does it say the E2 is tethered to the carrier? So that when the SSK goes to chase down the Hawkeye and finally gets there in 70 hours at a stealth speed of 3-5 knots and likely having snorkeled at least once, that the Hawkeye (which has landed and done 3 patrol rotations) is even within 100 miles of the carrier?

Who gets who first? The S-300 radar is plenty powerful. Don't forget that the ground installations have a variety of AA missiles and guns to give it an advantage.

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Yep

PLA SAM's are wheeled vehicles.

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Yep

[/quote]It's obvious you vest great faith in US radars. But it doesn't matter whether you're talking about E-8 or EP-3 or E-2C, if China's radar assets can DETECT your radar assets while remaining outside of your TRACKING range, you will lose. Interceptors will head for your planes and unload their missiles when they find it.[/quote]
I'm not sure if I am following your explanation here. If your AWACS/E Bird is passively listening, then how is your AWACS directing your fighters to my fighters?? If you can sniff the E2 (or whatever) Are you expecting your interceptors will get to and find the AWACS and shoot it down? Outside of your own AWACS coverage?


GAWD I wish there was a way to simumlate this stuff all out :coffee: