Aerodynamics thread

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Look i have never said you are less smart or i love F-22, never i meant that if you felt offended sorry, i never meant for you to feel insulted.

However i will be truely honest, vectorial algebra or basicly linear algebra states that momement, torque and basicly all objects have direction and magnitude when they move.

If you understand that you will understand what i said, i said lift and thrust are vectors, as such have direction.

Pitch has a direction is up or down and a magnitude is called pitch rate.
Torque has a direction and a magnitude, and it is the product of vectors, the center of gravity is a a vector projection of the gravity pulling down vector

Torque has a direction simply becuase if you open a door it opens into one direction simply like that and opens with a pitch rate or speed, you can slam the door or open it slowly.

Pitch or torque is the cross product of two vectors on a jet, gravity vector from center of gravity and thrust projection based upon the vertical force it generates.

When a jet turns with thrust vectoring the thrust is having a projection based upon two angles.

It is a fact thrust vectoring increases turn rate, lift is a up direction vector, pitching up also is a up direction vector.

ROFL! Your pseudoscience doesn't work here. Pitch vector is not an up direction vector! In fact, pitch vector is perpendicular to up (Z) vector as illustrated by the following diagram:

Pitch vector must be perpendicular to side component of thrust and moment arm, as this animation illustrated. Light blue at the pivot corresponds to moment, your so called pitch vector. Red is the moment arm. Dark blue is analogous to up/down thrust component. No lift vector was ever created.

ROFL!

The end result is Fighters increase turn rayes because the projection of thrust upon the axis of the jet increases the picht rate on a nose up direction, gravity as a vector is pulling down against lift, but thrust creates two projections one vertical for that you use sine and one horizontal for that you use cosine.
The center of gravity is also a vector, if you have studied the cross product of two vectors you will see the center of gravity is a horizontal projection of the gravity pulling down.



If you cheked well the formulas i posted, which by the way are not mine, i gave you the resources, you will understand what i said.

I have no hard feelings to you in fact i do not care if you beleive me or not, i know perfectly thrust vectoring has a vertical element and has a horizontal element, i know it increases turn rate in fighters like F-18, F-22, F-16 or Eurofighter as well as Harriers.

Firstly, a fighter turn rate can only be affected by lift. Vertical component of thrust only result in torque with no lift, because that component is not exerted on the aircraft's center-of-gravity. This is basic physics. Secondly, for the aircraft to pitch up the thrust vector must also be deflected upward, and so the thrust component is directed upward. That would kill lift even according to your fantasy.

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which explains the situation:

Vectoring was intended primarily as a moment-producing effector, so vectoring the plume up would cause a noseup pitching moment. But the exhaust plume vectored up would decrease the lift coefficient in the adverse direction while increasing the pitching moment coefficient in the proverse direction.

Pitch up requires vector up, and vectoring up kills lift. Thirdly, Harrier is a V/STOL aircraft and can hover in the air. F-16, F-18, and F-22 cannot use their thrust vectoring to hover, proving that no lift is created by their nozzles.

 

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

ROFL! Your pseudoscience doesn't work here. .

More fantasies let me see you can not distinguish now between axis and pitch up the nose?

hey what about AIM-9X it is not a harrier and still it increases turn rates hahaha, see you man live in fantasy

 

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

I aspected this wrong hahahaha let me remind you a bit

Next generation rocket propulsion systems are shifting towards higher levels of performance by incorporating advanced thrust vectoring capabilities for increased missile turning rates and maneuverability.

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hahahaha

let me show you where the AIM-9X has its thrust vectoring system

ROFL! Still wrong, since F-16 is not a missile. ROFL!

Your own quote stated that the pilot on the F-16 took advantage of the maximum turn capability, which means he was using something that is already existed by design. This was explained in the document:

While the production F-16 is one of the world's most maneuverable fighters, directional stability is lost between 30 and 50 degrees AOA when most of the vertical tail is blocked by the fuselage. (The rudder losses effectiveness at 35 degrees AOA.) Flight control limiters help prevent departure/spins, but restrict commanded AOA to 25.5 degrees--well short of the 32 degrees angle required for maximum lift. With yaw stability provided through thrust vectoring, the 25.5 degree restriction is eliminated maximizing inherent aircraft aerodynamics.

The keywords being inherent aircraft aerodynamics, something that existed with or without thrust vectoring. So, the F-16 was prevented from reaching maximum AOA before. When restriction was lifted, the aircraft obviously should perform better. This would be the case even if there were no thrust vectoring. No extra lift was created by TVN during this process.

During defensive maneuvering, thrust vectoring increased the survivability of the F-16 MATV due to the ability to use post-stall maneuvering. Post-stall maneuvering caused the attacking pilot to feel defensive and thereby modify his tactics to guard against the thrust vectoring jet. A graphic depiction of a post-stall maneuver during a one-vs-one high aspect single circle engagement is provided in Figure (6).

Additionally, improved kill ability was due to post-stall maneuvering. Back then, when only a few aircraft has thrust vectoring, only a few pilots have experience flying against an aircraft with thrust vectoring, resulting in no effective means to counter an opponent going post-stall. That has

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.


Now days, pilots have training against F-22 with known counters to post-stall maneuvers, but I digress. Post-stall maneuverability does not equate to performance.

I can imagine your face what! no no no what!

This is pretty much my face right now, as I can't stop laughing at your ridiculousness of treating an F-16 as a missile.

ROFL!

You said harrier only can increase turn rates hahahahaha

Harrier can hover. None of the following aircraft can hover: F-16MTAV, F-18HARV, F-22, Mig-29OVT, Su-30MKI, Su-35. Their thrust vectoring nozzle only results in pitch moment, and no lift. You are still unable to prove otherwise, and now you are going through all sort of attempts to misrepresent these aircraft as something else. You even considered F-16 as a missile! ROFL!

 

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

ROFL! Still wrong, since F-16 is not a missile. ROFL!
!

same physics.

 

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

More fantasies let me see you can not distinguish now between axis and pitch up the nose?

ROFL! What's wrong? I guess that diagram must be too complex for you to understand. Let me spell it out for you: pitch vector is not an up vector, but is perpendicular to the up (Z) vector. ROFL!

hey what about AIM-9X it is not a harrier and still it increases turn rates hahaha, see you man live in fantasy

What about it? It is a missile, not an F-16. ROFL!

You quoted

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and thought it claimed thrust vectoring creating lift to increase turn rate. What was actually said by the paper was that the removal of a AOA limiter which increased the F-16 turn capability. Thrust vectoring was not contributing lift to add to turn capability.

While the production F-16 is one of the world's most maneuverable fighters, directional stability is lost between 30 and 50 degrees AOA when most of the vertical tail is blocked by the fuselage. (The rudder losses effectiveness at 35 degrees AOA.) Flight control limiters help prevent departure/spins, but restrict commanded AOA to 25.5 degrees--well short of the 32 degrees angle required for maximum lift. With yaw stability provided through thrust vectoring, the 25.5 degree restriction is eliminated maximizing inherent aircraft aerodynamics.

The keywords here are inherent aircraft aerodynamics. This means the capability exists within the aircraft by design. This also excludes thrust vectoring, since vectoring is not an aerodynamic control.

 

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

same physics.

Only in your fantasy.

From

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which you have quoted, it was said that removal of an AOA limiter which the F-16 turn capability. Thrust vectoring was not contributing lift to add to turn capability.

While the production F-16 is one of the world's most maneuverable fighters, directional stability is lost between 30 and 50 degrees AOA when most of the vertical tail is blocked by the fuselage. (The rudder losses effectiveness at 35 degrees AOA.) Flight control limiters help prevent departure/spins, but restrict commanded AOA to 25.5 degrees--well short of the 32 degrees angle required for maximum lift. With yaw stability provided through thrust vectoring, the 25.5 degree restriction is eliminated maximizing inherent aircraft aerodynamics.

The keywords being inherent aircraft aerodynamics, which exists with or without thrust vectoring. To put it simply so you can understand, the F-16 was prevented from reaching maximum AOA before thus prevented from maximum turn rate. Of course the aircraft should perform better when the restriction was lifted. However, thrust vectoring was not providing extra lift to increase that turn rate.

 

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

ROFL! What's wrong? .

Pitch is right and left? hahahahaha that is the greatest fantasies hahahaha

Do you remember when the formula says

Fv=W-L+T sin(c)

and for turning was

n*W = L + T*sin(a + fT) (11)
Where the load factor n = (T*sin(a + fT) / W) / (L/D) (12)
ah! i see

do you remember AIM-9X has its increased turn rate

haha are you not confused?
are you okay is pitch left and right? hahaha

 

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Pitch is right and left? hahahahaha that is the greatest fantasies hahahaha

ROFL! Only in your fantasy does your pseudoscience makes pitch vector points to somewhere else. Pitch vector indeed falls span wise and is not an up vector. Pitching is a rotational motion about that vector.

Pitch vector falls span wise because it is the result of cross product between vertical tail force and moment arm axis. Cross product produces a third vector which must be perpendicular to the two others. Since tail force from thrust vectoring is already vertical, pitch vector must be horizontal. This is basic linear algebra!

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Do you remember when the formula says

Fv=W-L+T sin(c)

and for turning was

n*W = L + T*sin(a + fT) (11)
Where the load factor n = (T*sin(a + fT) / W) / (L/D) (12)
ah! i see

I remember it describes a Harrier and isn't applicable to aircraft with a tail nozzle. From

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, we see that the diagram illustrates a Harrier in motion:

do you remember AIM-9X has its increased turn rate

haha are you not confused?

ROFL! You treat F-16 as a missile! ROFL!

From

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:

While the production F-16 is one of the world's most maneuverable fighters, directional stability is lost between 30 and 50 degrees AOA when most of the vertical tail is blocked by the fuselage. (The rudder losses effectiveness at 35 degrees AOA.) Flight control limiters help prevent departure/spins, but restrict commanded AOA to 25.5 degrees--well short of the 32 degrees angle required for maximum lift. With yaw stability provided through thrust vectoring, the 25.5 degree restriction is eliminated maximizing inherent aircraft aerodynamics.

You thought the paper claimed thrust vectoring creating lift to increase turn rate. Instead, the paper explicitly said it was the removal of AOA limiter which increased the F-16 turn capability. The keywords here are inherent aircraft aerodynamics. This means the capability exists within the aircraft by design. This also excludes thrust vectoring, since vectoring is not an aerodynamic control.

You got proven wrong. You can't handle how I repeatedly debunk your myths, so now you treat F-16 as a missile. ROFL!

are you okay is pitch left and right? hahaha

Pitch vector lies left to right. It is very basic flight dynamics knowledge that even a first year aerospace engineering student would understand. Only in your fantasy would the vector be pointing at something else. Guess what? Pitch vector is not an up vector. Pitching is a rotation about the pitch vector and has nothing to do with lift, and that is the reality. Thus, the thrust vector generating pitch moment is not the same as generating lift.

 

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

ROFL! Only in your fantasy does your pseudoscience makes pitch vector points to somewhere else.

Pure fantasy of you the cross product does not create a yaw rate but a nose up or nose down vector, the axis of rotation is lateral but the nose is going up or down faster or quicker.

Pitch means nose up or nose down, as such you rate of turn is increased but of course only in your fantasies pitch is yaw and yaw is pitch.

in fact for such as reason they add lift to pitch thrust

Fv=W-L+T sin(c)

 

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Pure fantasy of you the cross product does not create a yaw rate but a nose up or nose down vector, the axis of rotation is lateral but the nose is going up or down faster or quicker.

Pitch means nose up or nose down, as such you rate of turn is increased but of course only in your fantasies pitch is yaw and yaw is pitch.

in fact for such as reason they add lift to pitch thrust

Fv=W-L+T sin(c)

Nope. Firstly, at no time did I mentioned yaw. Secondly, turn requires lift, which is a straight force toward the center of the turn. Pitch moment is related to rotation motion about the pitch axis, which points horizontally. Rotation is not lift. ROFL!