Aerodynamics thread

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

The comment of one USAF officer on a you tube video in regard to a VERY PARTICULAR set of circumstances, against an opponent who was unable to employ his equipment to advantage against the F-15, is the basis of your whole diatribe against OVT--- My position is--- that is a very poor and unscientific foundation for your obviously "emotional feelings" against the F-119 and its OVT. It is very successfully employed by the USAF every day, on every mission where the Raptor consistantly WINS. You can deny that---whatever, the USAF has choosen to employ OVT on the one and only operational fifth gen in the world, they put their money and their lives on OVT-go ahead deny that? OVT works, it is the center piece of the Raptors superior manueverability, but don't believe me, I'm sure Lt Col. Moga could convice even you, one thing is for sure, he's convinced the opposition! and they are not happy, LOL. Brat Out- and I am still smiling! Have a good day brother

Even after the US Air Force's fleet of Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor air superiority fighters starts receiving full Raytheon AIM-9X Sidewinder high off-boresight missle capability in 2017, the aircraft needs a helmet-mounted cueing system (HMCS) to use the weapon to its full potential. That is even taking into account the AIM-9X Block I and Block II's helmetless high off-boresight (HHOBS) capability.

"Without a helmet, that means the missile will need a very tight cue from somewhere," one F-22 pilot says. "[That's] something that is not always available in a dynamic, turning environment

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If you read this with care, you will understand that Helmet mounted sights equalize TVC nozzles.

Eurofighter beat F-22 not because it is more agile, but because it has a Helmet mounted sight that allows it to cue the missile even without turning.

F-35 uses the same technology.


Now understand this.
Thrust vectoring allows you for post stall, without missiles F-22 is indeed a very maneouvrable machine, it will beat Eurofighter any time, but with Helmet mounted sights, Eurofighter can expect victories over F-22.

For that reason the US will equip AIM-9Xs for its fleet of F-22.

See this, F-22 without helmet mounted sights and obsolete AIM-9L can beat Eurofighter armed with Helmet mounted sights and IRIS-T and IRST systems, that tell you how agile is F-22.

TVC nozzles also help stealth and reduce drag, that is the main advantage of them these days.
Once F-22 has AIM-9X and helmet mounted sights the F-22 will recover its superiority over Eurofighter

 

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

This isn't about emotion at all. This is about a real world example where a pilot believed TVC could boost his maneuverability and ended up losing due to that belief. In other words, it is a direct contradiction to theories on what TVC can accomplish. No matter how you dismiss and deny, that's what the real example boils down to.

.

If one were to overlay the energy-maneuverability (E-M) diagrams for the F/A-18, F-16 or Typhoon over the F-35's, "It is better. Comparable or better than every Western fourth-generation fighter out there," Flynn says. That applies even to the F-35 B and C models with their respective 7g and 7.5g limits. "You're not going to see any measurable difference between the aircraft," Flynn says. In terms of instantaneous and sustained turn rates and just about every other performance metric, the F-35 variants match or considerably exceed the capabilities of every fourth-generation fighter, he says.


"You maneuver the airplane much like an F-22 or a lot like I maneuvered the prototype F-16 20 years ago with thrust vectoring," Flynn says. "You maneuver the airplane back and forth with amazing controllability at the highest degree of angle-of-attack, and that is not the case with the only other Western airplane that can go to high AOA, the F/A-18." The one other exception is the Raptor, which Flynn does acknowledge as having better high AOA performance than the F-35 due to its thrust vectoring capability. The Typhoon, by comparison, has a 25° AOA limit. In the F-35, Lockheed made the decision to limit the AOA to 50°, but test pilots have flown the aircraft well past that.

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[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

If one were to overlay the energy-maneuverability (E-M) diagrams for the F/A-18, F-16 or Typhoon over the F-35's, "It is better. Comparable or better than every Western fourth-generation fighter out there," Flynn says. That applies even to the F-35 B and C models with their respective 7g and 7.5g limits. "You're not going to see any measurable difference between the aircraft," Flynn says. In terms of instantaneous and sustained turn rates and just about every other performance metric, the F-35 variants match or considerably exceed the capabilities of every fourth-generation fighter, he says.


"You maneuver the airplane much like an F-22 or a lot like I maneuvered the prototype F-16 20 years ago with thrust vectoring," Flynn says. "You maneuver the airplane back and forth with amazing controllability at the highest degree of angle-of-attack, and that is not the case with the only other Western airplane that can go to high AOA, the F/A-18." The one other exception is the Raptor, which Flynn does acknowledge as having better high AOA performance than the F-35 due to its thrust vectoring capability. The Typhoon, by comparison, has a 25° AOA limit. In the F-35, Lockheed made the decision to limit the AOA to 50°, but test pilots have flown the aircraft well past that.

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I can quote too.

The F22 can sustain a turn rate of 28 deg per second at 20,000 feet while the F-15 can get an instantaneous rate of 21 and a sustained rate of 15-16 degrees. So you are pulling and hoping. Post stall, maneuver, the ass end drops and instead of going up, it just drops in mid air and the airplane will rotate with its nose up. This is where the Eagle or Viper pilot would pull up vertical, switch to guns, then come down and take a shot at the F-22. Of course you have to first get in close to do this, most probably the F-22 will kill you before that.

The Su-30? No problem. Big airplane. Big cross section. Jamming to get to the merge, so you have to fight close... he has 22 - 23 degrees per second sustained turn rate. We've been fighting the Raptor, so we've been going oh dude, this is easy. So as we're fighting him, all of a sudden you'd see the ass end kick down, going post stall - but now he starts falling from the sky. The F-15 wouldn't even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.

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So, in both cases the pilots in an aircraft with TVC believed the TVC will provide more turn rate. In both cases, the pilots ended up losing because of that belief.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

I can quote too.

Oh? and what did we quote? Oh I see, "The F-22 has a sustained turn rate of 28 degrees per sec at 20,000 ft" Yes, Yes, go on, "while the F-15 has an instantaneous turn rate of 21 degrees" , "and a sustained turn rate of 15 to 16 degrees" ?
CAN YOU SAY OVT BOYS AND GIRLS? SORRY umh huh? go on, "of course you have to first get in close to do that?" of course, of course go on, ''most probably, the F-22 will KILL you before that!

Thank you Eng for telling the truth, well there you have it gentlemen, from the great man himself, 28 degrees per second with OVT, 15-16 sustained without, Thrust Vectoring is the KEY, from the mouth of an Authoritative USAF F-15 Jockey, OVT and the superior aerodynamics and mass centralization of the F-22 increase your turn rate about 80%! awesome Dude! so kids from the same authority, "most probably, the F-22 will KILL you before that!

And, on top of that, the Flanker with OVT at 23 degrees per second, will out-turn the F-15 and the conventional Flanker without OVT! The Prosecution Rests! You can run, but you can't hide, Brat

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

If one were to overlay the energy-maneuverability (E-M) diagrams for the F/A-18, F-16 or Typhoon over the F-35's, "It is better. Comparable or better than every Western fourth-generation fighter out there," Flynn says. That applies even to the F-35 B and C models with their respective 7g and 7.5g limits. "You're not going to see any measurable difference between the aircraft," Flynn says. In terms of instantaneous and sustained turn rates and just about every other performance metric, the F-35 variants match or considerably exceed the capabilities of every fourth-generation fighter, he says.


"You maneuver the airplane much like an F-22 or a lot like I maneuvered the prototype F-16 20 years ago with thrust vectoring," Flynn says. "You maneuver the airplane back and forth with amazing controllability at the highest degree of angle-of-attack, and that is not the case with the only other Western airplane that can go to high AOA, the F/A-18." The one other exception is the Raptor, which Flynn does acknowledge as having better high AOA performance than the F-35 due to its thrust vectoring capability. The Typhoon, by comparison, has a 25° AOA limit. In the F-35, Lockheed made the decision to limit the AOA to 50°, but test pilots have flown the aircraft well past that.

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So Mig your Typhoon is "dead meat", and it most certainly won't out-turn a Raptor with OVT! Good Night all, Brat

 

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Oh? and what did we quote? Oh I see, "The F-22 has a sustained turn rate of 28 degrees per sec at 20,000 ft" Yes, Yes, go on, "while the F-15 has an instantaneous turn rate of 21 degrees" , "and a sustained turn rate of 15 to 16 degrees" ?
CAN YOU SAY OVT BOYS AND GIRLS? SORRY umh huh? go on, "of course you have to first get in close to do that?" of course, of course go on, ''most probably, the F-22 will KILL you before that!

Thank you Eng for telling the truth, well there you have it gentlemen, from the great man himself, 28 degrees per second with OVT, 15-16 sustained without, Thrust Vectoring is the KEY, from the mouth of an Authoritative USAF F-15 Jockey, OVT and the superior aerodynamics and mass centralization of the F-22 increase your turn rate about 80%! awesome Dude! so kids from the same authority, "most probably, the F-22 will KILL you before that!

And, on top of that, the Flanker with OVT at 23 degrees per second, will out-turn the F-15 and the conventional Flanker without OVT! The Prosecution Rests! You can run, but you can't hide, Brat

You are very welcome. I am glad you finally come to the realization that going post-stall with TVC doesn't help in a dog fight.

At the end of the day, it is aerodynamics and engine power that gives F-22 the edge. Even without TVC, the F-22 will still be 80% more maneuverable than an F-15.

 

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

I can quote too.



So, in both cases the pilots in an aircraft with TVC believed the TVC will provide more turn rate. In both cases, the pilots ended up losing because of that belief.

too much fantasy of your part,

However, the toughest of the fighter jet to face in aerial combat, at least if you are seated in an F-16, is the F-22 Raptor: “It’s not a matter of trying to kill him, but to see how long you can survive!” as “Rico” says in “Viper Force: 56th Fighter Wing–To Fly and Fight the F-16″ book by Lt. Col. Robert “Cricket” Renner USAF (Ret.).

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live in your fantasy, the only thing that can kill a F-22 is a HMS and a highly off bore missile

Even without a HMCS, the AIM-9X cannot be fielded to the Raptor fleet soon enough.

"We've been screaming for years that the F-22 needs to have the capability fielded, and fast," the Raptor pilot says. "Once the jets transitions from BVR [beyond visual range] to WVR [within visual range] with only AIM-9M-9s it is hugely vulnerable."

The huge advantage offered by such a high off-boresight missile in combination with a HMCS may give a third or fourth-generation fighter a decided edge over the fifth-generation Raptor (with AIM-9Ms) in a visual range encounter.

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light tests of thrust-vectoring designs began in the early 1990s with airplanes like NASA’s modified F/A-18 and F-15, the Rockwell/MBB X-31, and a modified Air Force F-16. In 1994, the X-31 demonstrator was fitted with what German program managers called a “poor man’s thrust vectoring nozzle”—three paddle-like vanes that pushed into the exhaust stream—and the results were spectacular. Without thrust vectoring, the X-31 lost twice as often as it won against the F/A-18 in mock combat; with it, the X-31 didn’t lose once in 129 matches.

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“But as soon as you get to the merge…” Pfeiffer said, referring to the point at which fighters engage in close-up dogfighting, “in that area, at least, the Typhoon doesn’t necessarily have to fear the F-22 in all aspects… In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22, with advantages in some aspects.”

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USAF sources say that the Typhoon has good energy and a pretty good first turn, but that they were able to outmanoeuvre the Germans due to the Raptor's thrust vectoring. Additionally, the Typhoon was not able to match the high angle of attack capability of the F-22. "We ended up with numerous gunshots," another USAF pilot says.

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his would be coherent by analysis made in the past according to which the TV it’s not worth the energy cost unless the fighter is in the post stall regime, especially in the era of High Off Bore Sight and Helmet Mounted Display (features that the F-22 lacks).

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[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

too much fantasy of your part,

However, the toughest of the fighter jet to face in aerial combat, at least if you are seated in an F-16, is the F-22 Raptor: “It’s not a matter of trying to kill him, but to see how long you can survive!” as “Rico” says in “Viper Force: 56th Fighter Wing–To Fly and Fight the F-16″ book by Lt. Col. Robert “Cricket” Renner USAF (Ret.).

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live in your fantasy, the only thing that can kill a F-22 is a HMS and a highly off bore missile

Even without a HMCS, the AIM-9X cannot be fielded to the Raptor fleet soon enough.

"We've been screaming for years that the F-22 needs to have the capability fielded, and fast," the Raptor pilot says. "Once the jets transitions from BVR [beyond visual range] to WVR [within visual range] with only AIM-9M-9s it is hugely vulnerable."

The huge advantage offered by such a high off-boresight missile in combination with a HMCS may give a third or fourth-generation fighter a decided edge over the fifth-generation Raptor (with AIM-9Ms) in a visual range encounter.

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light tests of thrust-vectoring designs began in the early 1990s with airplanes like NASA’s modified F/A-18 and F-15, the Rockwell/MBB X-31, and a modified Air Force F-16. In 1994, the X-31 demonstrator was fitted with what German program managers called a “poor man’s thrust vectoring nozzle”—three paddle-like vanes that pushed into the exhaust stream—and the results were spectacular. Without thrust vectoring, the X-31 lost twice as often as it won against the F/A-18 in mock combat; with it, the X-31 didn’t lose once in 129 matches.

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What is a true fantasy is your belief that TVC makes an aircraft invincible. The reality is TVC does no such thing. Going off tangent on HMS isn't going to change that reality. An actual USAF said the following regarding an actual exercise involving aircraft with TVC:

The F22 can sustain a turn rate of 28 deg per second at 20,000 feet while the F-15 can get an instantaneous rate of 21 and a sustained rate of 15-16 degrees. So you are pulling and hoping. Post stall, maneuver, the ass end drops and instead of going up, it just drops in mid air and the airplane will rotate with its nose up. This is where the Eagle or Viper pilot would pull up vertical, switch to guns, then come down and take a shot at the F-22. Of course you have to first get in close to do this, most probably the F-22 will kill you before that.

The Su-30? No problem. Big airplane. Big cross section. Jamming to get to the merge, so you have to fight close... he has 22 - 23 degrees per second sustained turn rate. We've been fighting the Raptor, so we've been going oh dude, this is easy. So as we're fighting him, all of a sudden you'd see the ass end kick down, going post stall - but now he starts falling from the sky. The F-15 wouldn't even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.

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So, in both cases the pilots in question believed they could out maneuver their opponents by kicking in the TVC. In both cases, the pilots lost as a result of that decision.

 

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

What is a true fantasy is your belief that TVC makes an aircraft invincible. .

This would be coherent by analysis made in the past according to which the TV it’s not worth the energy cost unless the fighter is in the post stall regime, especially in the era of High Off Bore Sight and Helmet Mounted Display (features that the F-22 lacks).

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How good is TVC that lacking HMS a F-22 can beat Eurofighters with very advanced HMS



so the state-of-the-art Raptor still packs around AIM-9M Sidewinders which are incapable of high angle off bore-sight shots.The German Eurofighters on the other hand pack the highly capable and modern IRIS-T short-range (but longer than the Sidewinder series) missile. During a “turning fight” all the Eurofighter pilot has to do to kill their enemy is to maneuver the nimble fighter into a position where he or she can simply look at the bandit, even up to almost 90 degrees off the jet’s center axis, acquire a lock and fire. This means that almost the whole 180 degree frontal hemisphere of the highly maneuverable Typhoon is deadly, whereas at this time the F-22′s forward close in missile engagement envelope is much more narrow in comparison. Additionally, the IRIS-T has a far wider viewing area with its imagine infra-red sensor bore-sighted, thus the missile is much more capable than the AIM-9M even when not aided by a helmet mounted sight. The Raptor is finally slated to get a helmet mounted sighting system in the next couple of years which will allow it to carry the latest AIM-9X high off bore-sight imagining infra-red missile and employ it to its maximum potential, including a novel lock-on after launch capability. The long-awaited addition of the AIM-9X and helmet mounted sight to the F-22 weapon system, combined with the Raptor’s exiting thrust vectoring capability, should allow it to reliably vanquish anything within the close in air to air realm in the very near future

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The F-22's manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, and the Air Force cite a 30:1 kill ratio between Raptors and their prey. That doesn't equate to one F-22 taking on dozens of enemies; the figure means that for every Raptor shot down, 30
Read more: Inside the War Games for U.S. Air Force Fighter Pilots - Popular Mechanics

The Art of Losing
No U.S. airplane--or any other in the world--can match the F-22 in a dogfight during combat training. To get experience in realistic battle conditions, Raptor pilots--always the Blue Team-- are training with U.S. pilots who serve as adversaries, or "Red Teams." Last week, Raptor pilots finished training against Navy F-15s and F/A-18 Super Hornets in Japan. From February through April, Nellis hosts F-22s at the 2009 Red Flag wargames, a six-week, multinational training exercise held at Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska and at Nellis.

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Read more: Inside the War Games for U.S. Air Force Fighter Pilots - Popular Mechanics

 

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

This would be coherent by analysis made in the past according to which the TV it’s not worth the energy cost unless the fighter is in the post stall regime, especially in the era of High Off Bore Sight and Helmet Mounted Display (features that the F-22 lacks).

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How good is TVC that lacking HMS a F-22 can beat Eurofighters with very advanced HMS



so the state-of-the-art Raptor still packs around AIM-9M Sidewinders which are incapable of high angle off bore-sight shots.The German Eurofighters on the other hand pack the highly capable and modern IRIS-T short-range (but longer than the Sidewinder series) missile. During a “turning fight” all the Eurofighter pilot has to do to kill their enemy is to maneuver the nimble fighter into a position where he or she can simply look at the bandit, even up to almost 90 degrees off the jet’s center axis, acquire a lock and fire. This means that almost the whole 180 degree frontal hemisphere of the highly maneuverable Typhoon is deadly, whereas at this time the F-22′s forward close in missile engagement envelope is much more narrow in comparison. Additionally, the IRIS-T has a far wider viewing area with its imagine infra-red sensor bore-sighted, thus the missile is much more capable than the AIM-9M even when not aided by a helmet mounted sight. The Raptor is finally slated to get a helmet mounted sighting system in the next couple of years which will allow it to carry the latest AIM-9X high off bore-sight imagining infra-red missile and employ it to its maximum potential, including a novel lock-on after launch capability. The long-awaited addition of the AIM-9X and helmet mounted sight to the F-22 weapon system, combined with the Raptor’s exiting thrust vectoring capability, should allow it to reliably vanquish anything within the close in air to air realm in the very near future

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The F-22's manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, and the Air Force cite a 30:1 kill ratio between Raptors and their prey. That doesn't equate to one F-22 taking on dozens of enemies; the figure means that for every Raptor shot down, 30
Read more: Inside the War Games for U.S. Air Force Fighter Pilots - Popular Mechanics

The Art of Losing
No U.S. airplane--or any other in the world--can match the F-22 in a dogfight during combat training. To get experience in realistic battle conditions, Raptor pilots--always the Blue Team-- are training with U.S. pilots who serve as adversaries, or "Red Teams." Last week, Raptor pilots finished training against Navy F-15s and F/A-18 Super Hornets in Japan. From February through April, Nellis hosts F-22s at the 2009 Red Flag wargames, a six-week, multinational training exercise held at Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska and at Nellis.

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Read more: Inside the War Games for U.S. Air Force Fighter Pilots - Popular Mechanics

Once again, you are going off tangent with HMS which is totally irrelevant to the effectiveness of TVC. In the particular exercise between F-22 and USAF aircraft, as well as the Red Flag exercise involving Su-30MKI, the aircraft with TVC lost to aircraft without HMS. That is a fact.