Aerodynamics thread

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

First, you are pulling a

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

, since I never denied the F-22 as a good aircraft. However, the F-22 being a good aircraft and that super maneuverability/post-stall maneuver being useful are different concepts. The aircraft having high performance does not automatically means TVC being useful, as there are other known contributors of high performance.

Second, you essentially accused me of asserting USAF as wrong. This couldn't be further from the truth. I couldn't care less whether they are right or wrong, but I do value their opinion. This is why I used USAF's own behavior to illustrate how USAF didn't think as highly of TVC as you do. Once again, stop pulling strawman arguments.

Thirdly, USAF upgrades its old aircraft with new avionics like expensive AESA radars. In light of this, your argument about how USAF doesn't want to spend money to upgrade outdated equipments is hardly a strong argument.


.

Even after the US Air Force's fleet of Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor air superiority fighters starts receiving full Raytheon AIM-9X Sidewinder high off-boresight missle capability in 2017, the aircraft needs a helmet-mounted cueing system (HMCS) to use the weapon to its full potential. That is even taking into account the AIM-9X Block I and Block II's helmetless high off-boresight (HHOBS) capability.

"Without a helmet, that means the missile will need a very tight cue from somewhere," one F-22 pilot says. "[That's] something that is not always available in a dynamic, turning environment."

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

TVC is useful for more than post-stall, but HMS and AIM-9Xs are equalizers

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

First, you are pulling a

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

, since I never denied the F-22 as a good aircraft. However, the F-22 being a good aircraft and that super maneuverability/post-stall maneuver being useful are different concepts. The aircraft having high performance does not automatically means TVC being useful, as there are other known contributors of high performance.

Second, you essentially accused me of asserting USAF as wrong.

Actually I'm saying that LOCKMART and the USAF have far more credibility on OVT than you Eng, you know that and I know that, to maintain that we have been duped by LOCKMART/USAF is bogus dude. I stood 50 yds from the Raptor as those burners were lit, the air was litterally being shredded, and then I saw the whole flying routine, tail-slide, power loop and all, NONE of what is most impressive about the Raptor would be possible without OVT. I have observed the Raptor since she was a gleam in the USAFs eye, and as she slowly and lovingly came together, and soundly trounced the YF-23 in competition, wanna know why, yep, OVT. The Raptor will turn, it will burn, and it will supercruise, and it will pull 6gs at 50,000ft, that is done at speed Eng, not post stall, with the heat on! Really Gen Schwartz is right, he is in a position to know, and he doesn't need to guild the Lily, nobody says to him prove it, cause he's got credibility.

Finally, I the Air Force Brat, have observed aircraft since I was suckin on a Binki dude, I have seen the F-100, F-101, F-102, F-104, A-4, F-4, F-14, F-16, F-18, and the awesome F-15, the fighter pilots fighter, all up close, ran my grubby little fingers all over Natasha-Mig-29 smuggled out of a former soviet block country, by an ex Navy top gun instructor with two suitcases full of cash in the trunk of a Mercedes Benz, Mig-15, Mig-17, been invited on a back-seat in a Mig-21, "I'm not that crazy yet", which I also ran my grubby little digits all over, yeah, I like the feel of the real deal, how about Mustangs, Corsairs, Bearcats, T-33, T-38, been up close and personal with the Concorde in full AB, and the B-1B also int full burner at less than 100 yds on its take off roll, and yes I am a Pilot, nuthin fancy but it was mine, so tell me who the straw man is Eng? I have seen most of those Aircraft flown in a full on Air Show profile, top of the subsonic, bottom of the Ark on the low end, straight up, and straight down, I even have 15 or so hours in a Mitsubishi Turbo-Prop at night as co-pilot. When I say theres nothing like the Raptor, it because its true, there is nothing on this planet that will do what the Raptor does everyday, sometime twice a day, and all night long! Its also a very safe airplane, with only two fatalities in nearly twenty years of CRAZY high G single pilot, over water, more Crazy high G, down low in the teens, it will supposedly maintain 9.5 gs, don't think that wouldn't put us both to sleep, I'd weigh nearly a ton? so really,I say OVT is a game changer-feel free to be Wrong! we're all human on the Sino Defense, but while we agree about nearly everything else, including the J-20 is a wonderfull, brilliant, smart airplane, and I am a big fan, shame you have to accuse me of setting up a strawman. go watch you-tube, thats where the real experts hang out, strawman? You mean the ScareCrow!

 

[Jovian]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Hi guys, umm... what is an OVT?

I mean what does it stand for? So far, I can only think of ..."Oh! Vector Thrust" (?) ... okay that's not even close isn't it?



>_< (yes, I am a noob)

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Hi guys, umm... what is an OVT?

I mean what does it stand for? So far, I can only think of ..."Oh! Vector Thrust" (?) ... okay that's not even close isn't it?



>_< (yes, I am a noob)

ah don't worry about it, OVT or TVC, are just Thrust Vectoring Exhaust nozzles that allow you to direct engine thrust to maneuver the aircraft, the Russians call theirs OVT, we call ours TVC, the Raptor has 2d flat nozzles, the Flanker and T-50 have 3d which also includes yaw control, but are round. Hope this helps,, there are some vids on you-tube that will show you the nozzles in action. They operate on the Raptor through-out the speed range, but are particularly helpfull when your airspeed is low and full control deflection may not help. The US had several test birds the first the F-15, had canards on the front and thrust vectoring nozzles, Mig you had several good sight on TVC of the US birds, I don't know about some of that Russian stuff. Thanks for asking Jovian, and feel free to ask questions, the Eng and Mig have both helped me out in the past. Brat

Your thinking is on the right track, keep looking Brat

 

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Hi guys, umm... what is an OVT?

I mean what does it stand for? So far, I can only think of ..."Oh! Vector Thrust" (?) ... okay that's not even close isn't it?



>_< (yes, I am a noob)

MiG-29OVT (Otklanyayemi Vektor Tyagi / Deflected Thrust Vector)",

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

ah don't worry about it, OVT or TVC, are just Thrust Vectoring Exhaust nozzles that allow you to direct engine thrust to maneuver the aircraft, the Russians call theirs OVT, we call ours TVC, the Raptor has 2d flat nozzles, the Flanker and T-50 have 3d which also includes yaw control, but are round. Hope this helps,, there are some vids on you-tube that will show you the nozzles in action. They operate on the Raptor through-out the speed range, but are particularly helpfull when your airspeed is low and full control deflection may not help. The US had several test birds the first the F-15, had canards on the front and thrust vectoring nozzles, Mig you had several good sight on TVC of the US birds, I don't know about some of that Russian stuff. Thanks for asking Jovian, and feel free to ask questions, the Eng and Mig have both helped me out in the past. Brat

Your thinking is on the right track, keep looking Brat

The US has the same level of TVC nozzles technology Russia has.


However in the F-22 the US compromised performance for stealth.

In fact the US got the technology first.

The difference stems the US has arrived to different application of the technology due to greater emphasys on stealth.

In the USA IR reduction and drag reduction were the determinant factors plus the US arrived to a more powerful engine first.

Russia`s first generation fifth generation engine was too big to fit on PAKFA,this was the MiG1.44 engine, therefore a miniaturization of the technology delayed 117 and 129 engines. By 2015 Russia`s fifth generation engine will be lighter than AL-31 and much more powerful.

 

[Jovian]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

ah don't worry about it, OVT or TVC, are just Thrust Vectoring Exhaust nozzles that allow you to direct engine thrust to maneuver the aircraft, the Russians call theirs OVT, we call ours TVC, the Raptor has 2d flat nozzles, the Flanker and T-50 have 3d which also includes yaw control, but are round. Hope this helps,, there are some vids on you-tube that will show you the nozzles in action. They operate on the Raptor through-out the speed range, but are particularly helpfull when your airspeed is low and full control deflection may not help. The US had several test birds the first the F-15, had canards on the front and thrust vectoring nozzles, Mig you had several good sight on TVC of the US birds, I don't know about some of that Russian stuff. Thanks for asking Jovian, and feel free to ask questions, the Eng and Mig have both helped me out in the past. Brat

Your thinking is on the right track, keep looking Brat

I was wondering what does "O-V-T" stand for. So it is a Russian term. Thanks for the info.

 

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Actually I'm saying that LOCKMART and the USAF have far more credibility on OVT than you Eng, you know that and I know that, to maintain that we have been duped by LOCKMART/USAF is bogus dude. I stood 50 yds from the Raptor as those burners were lit, the air was litterally being shredded, and then I saw the whole flying routine, tail-slide, power loop and all, NONE of what is most impressive about the Raptor would be possible without OVT. I have observed the Raptor since she was a gleam in the USAFs eye, and as she slowly and lovingly came together, and soundly trounced the YF-23 in competition, wanna know why, yep, OVT. The Raptor will turn, it will burn, and it will supercruise, and it will pull 6gs at 50,000ft, that is done at speed Eng, not post stall, with the heat on! Really Gen Schwartz is right, he is in a position to know, and he doesn't need to guild the Lily, nobody says to him prove it, cause he's got credibility.

This is simply funny. My arguments are backed up by USAF's credibility this entire time, whereas you think your experience at an airshow makes you an expert. I have cited a video of a speech by an actual USAF pilot with experience in TVC. I have also pointed out how USAF lacks interest in retrofitting older planes with TVC. You have cited nothing that shows how post-stall maneuvers with TVC is useful in air combat.

Finally, I the Air Force Brat, have observed aircraft since I was suckin on a Binki dude, I have seen the F-100, F-101, F-102, F-104, A-4, F-4, F-14, F-16, F-18, and the awesome F-15, the fighter pilots fighter, all up close, ran my grubby little fingers all over Natasha-Mig-29 smuggled out of a former soviet block country, by an ex Navy top gun instructor with two suitcases full of cash in the trunk of a Mercedes Benz, Mig-15, Mig-17, been invited on a back-seat in a Mig-21, "I'm not that crazy yet", which I also ran my grubby little digits all over, yeah, I like the feel of the real deal, how about Mustangs, Corsairs, Bearcats, T-33, T-38, been up close and personal with the Concorde in full AB, and the B-1B also int full burner at less than 100 yds on its take off roll, and yes I am a Pilot, nuthin fancy but it was mine, so tell me who the straw man is Eng? I have seen most of those Aircraft flown in a full on Air Show profile, top of the subsonic, bottom of the Ark on the low end, straight up, and straight down, I even have 15 or so hours in a Mitsubishi Turbo-Prop at night as co-pilot. When I say theres nothing like the Raptor, it because its true, there is nothing on this planet that will do what the Raptor does everyday, sometime twice a day, and all night long! Its also a very safe airplane, with only two fatalities in nearly twenty years of CRAZY high G single pilot, over water, more Crazy high G, down low in the teens, it will supposedly maintain 9.5 gs, don't think that wouldn't put us both to sleep, I'd weigh nearly a ton? so really,I say OVT is a game changer-feel free to be Wrong! we're all human on the Sino Defense, but while we agree about nearly everything else, including the J-20 is a wonderfull, brilliant, smart airplane, and I am a big fan, shame you have to accuse me of setting up a strawman. go watch you-tube, thats where the real experts hang out, strawman? You mean the ScareCrow!

Have you had experience with TVC? You do not. You know this, I know this. It is your word against the words of that USAF pilot from the video, and the USAF pilot is more credible. I rest my case.

Also, shame on you for pulling a strawman argument.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

This is simply funny. My arguments are backed up by USAF's credibility this entire time, whereas you think your experience at an airshow makes you an expert. I have cited a video of a speech by an actual USAF pilot with experience in TVC. I have also pointed out how USAF lacks interest in retrofitting older planes with TVC. You have cited nothing that shows how post-stall maneuvers with TVC is useful in air combat.


Have you had experience with TVC? You do not. You know this, I know this. It is your word against the words of that USAF pilot from the video, and the USAF pilot is more credible. I rest my case.

Also, shame on you for pulling a strawman argument.

The comment of one USAF officer on a you tube video in regard to a VERY PARTICULAR set of circumstances, against an opponent who was unable to employ his equipment to advantage against the F-15, is the basis of your whole diatribe against OVT--- My position is--- that is a very poor and unscientific foundation for your obviously "emotional feelings" against the F-119 and its OVT. It is very successfully employed by the USAF every day, on every mission where the Raptor consistantly WINS. You can deny that---whatever, the USAF has choosen to employ OVT on the one and only operational fifth gen in the world, they put their money and their lives on OVT-go ahead deny that? OVT works, it is the center piece of the Raptors superior manueverability, but don't believe me, I'm sure Lt Col. Moga could convice even you, one thing is for sure, he's convinced the opposition! and they are not happy, LOL. Brat Out- and I am still smiling! Have a good day brother

 

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

The comment of one USAF officer on a you tube video in regard to a VERY PARTICULAR set of circumstances, against an opponent who was unable to employ his equipment to advantage against the F-15, is the basis of your whole diatribe against OVT--- My position is--- that is a very poor and unscientific foundation for your obviously "emotional feelings" against the F-119 and its OVT. It is very successfully employed by the USAF every day, on every mission where the Raptor consistantly WINS. You can deny that---whatever, the USAF has choosen to employ OVT on the one and only operational fifth gen in the world, they put their money and their lives on OVT-go ahead deny that? OVT works, it is the center piece of the Raptors superior manueverability, but don't believe me, I'm sure Lt Col. Moga could convice even you, one thing is for sure, he's convinced the opposition! and they are not happy, LOL. Brat Out- and I am still smiling! Have a good day brother

This isn't about emotion at all. This is about a real world example where a pilot believed TVC could boost his maneuverability and ended up losing due to that belief. In other words, it is a direct contradiction to theories on what TVC can accomplish. No matter how you dismiss and deny, that's what the real example boils down to.

And once again, I have nothing against the F-22 or its F-119 engines so quit claiming that I do. The F-22 is a very good aircraft, but that doesn't mean TVC is the contributor those good qualities. You reasoning involves saying "F-22 is good, TVC is on the F-22, therefore TVC makes the aircraft good". It is no less silly than me claiming "F-22 is good, a pilot brought his lucky charm on the F-22, therefore the lucky charm makes the aircraft good". The problem is that F-22 is constituted of a whole lot more than just TVC, so you cannot infer anything about the TVC's effects on aircraft performance.

Finally, the USAF would rather upgrade older aircraft with expensive avionics than to retrofit them with TVC. Go ahead and deny that. The USAF has already put its money where its mouth is.