AEGIS and AEGIS Like escort combatants of the World

Blitzo

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I consider "Aegis like" to be a descriptor of capability, not of features or technology. A ship has a claim to being Aegis like if she is both intended to conduct, and capable of conducting, hemispherical large area air defense against high volume saturation air threats at all altitudes. The claim is strengthened if the ship is also capable of acting as a control hub for a integrated multi-platform area air defense network.

An Aegis like ship can employ PESA or AESA flat panels like Aegis, as types 052C and 052D do. But it would still be Aegis like if it can duplicate the capability with mechanically scanned array, as British Daring class does.

If a ship has PESA or AESA Flat panels, but can not conduct large area defense against all altitude saturation attacks, as Japanese Akizuki is not designed to do and probably can not do, then it is not Aegis like irrespective of the panels.

The Moroccan FFG almost certainly fall far short of Aegis like in capability. So it is not Aegis like.


I like that definition, however there are ships which don't fit those specifications yet would also be considered (or not considered) aegis.

For instance, there are ships with PARs and VLS that are more designed for "shorter range" AAW, such as the thales APAR equipped saschen and de provincien class frigates, or as you state, the FCS-3A equipped akizuki. All such ships have relatively lower range PARs (effective range out to 200km as compared to the longer 400km+ ranges of SPY-1, SAMPSON, type 348 etc), and seem to emphasize medium range air defence more than longer range air defence.

However, they are all capable of decent missile saturation defence at mid range as well -- namely due to their radar's ability to simultaneously illuminate more targets than say, aegis ships which require mechanically mounted illuminators, I think.

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Another example is the Indian Kolkata class, which is equipped with the 250km+ MF STAR S band APAR, which is probably comparable to the SPY-1 in at least range. So, its radar has competent range performance but its AAW relies on the 70km barak 8. Assuming that 70km figure optimistically reflects its maximum effective range, it is still more of a medium-long range SAM rather than true long range SAM like SM-2, Aster 30, HQ-9. Would the Kolkata thus be considered "aegis-like" or not?
(Note, the Barak 8 is an active radar guided SAM, so it should have better multi target engagement than a ship equipped with only SARH guided missiles)


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Another example we can include are the Kirov and Slava classes.

On paper they have highly capable missile systems with naval S-300s that can reach out to nearly two hundred kilometers. However we don't know how well they can handle saturation attacks, and their is skepticism regarding the soviet era combat management systems and electronics, I think.
So, aegis-like, yes/no?



I think a ship's "aegis-like"-ness can effectively be rated on a series of continuous (rather than categorical) scales, measuring domains such as air defence, surface attack, land attack, ASW.

There will be no "overall" score that seeks to unify the above domains, because every ship's capability will differ depending on its mission and loadout available (for instance, the JMSDF's aegis ships lack cruise missiles, but that shouldn't necessarily decrease its score compared to an aegis destroyer that can fire tomahawks).

However there are common scores we can attribute to various ships, no matter their "mission" or "loadout" -- combat management, damage resistance, cost, should all be relatively unbiased measures to compound upon the individual combat domains which every ship might excel in or lack in.

Maybe if we had a lot of time we could all chip in and debate a common metric for measuring the combat capability of various ships lol. We could call it the SDF warship competency scale or something.


But alas, the only conclusion we can maintain is that the "aegis" label is only one which is useful for marketing and showing off to the uninformed enthusiasts of the world :)
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Well, in my definition I do include the hemispherical nature of the air defense, but I set a range and altitude that does include the range and height that falls within the bounds of the extremities of the ESSM so the Akizuki does fall within it.

So my cutoff is different than your would be. But otherwise, our definitions line up very well.

Just depends on where you want that line to be. If you say "all altitude saturation attacks" then you could only include those vessels capable of BMD, which cuts out a whole lot of ship classes.

I admit ballistic missile defence is a gray area. Even true Aegis ships ability to intercept true ICBMS is limited and restricted to just a small fraction of all Aegis platforms. By all altitude I was restricting all altitude normally covered by air breathing vehicles, plus medium range ballistic missiles.
 
I admit ballistic missile defence is a gray area. Even true Aegis ships ability to intercept true ICBMS is limited and restricted to just a small fraction of all Aegis platforms. By all altitude I was restricting all altitude normally covered by air breathing vehicles, plus medium range ballistic missiles.

As far as I know, the Moroccans have the French-ASW-version of FREMM with the Sylver A43 VLS (for Aster 15 missiles only) and thus they would be BMD-incapable :) even if the Block 2 Aster 30 became a success
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Blitzo

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I was always under the impression that Atagos were basically flight iia burkes with some small modifications that didn't drastically effect its capability with the latter, but apparently Atagos only have one helicopter hangar as opposed to the Burke iia's two. No idea how I let that escape me.

A picture from Jeff's site to show:

Photo-Jmsdf-atago3.jpg
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Fine, my third in a row here :) This IS AEGIS:
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The voice on included video speaks with an Australian accent, I guess :)

Shame they cancelled the 4th unit would have gave them 25% increase in AEGIS capability

Believe it or not there was a feasibility study done and it was calculated that if RAN got a 4th Horbat it would be almost for free and cost almost as much as the 3 DDG

Reason was that the wear and tear over 4 ships was much better than over 3, the overhaul and repair over 3 was better over 4 units and a standardised operation of 3 DDG extended over 4 would be beneficial in terms of economics not to mention the R&D divided over 4 ships would reduce the overall unit cost

So really RAN should have built four Horbat Class DDG but the government had no clue so they cancelled the forth real shame Same story is for RN Type 45 DDG
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
I was always under the impression that Atagos were basically flight iia burkes with some small modifications that didn't drastically effect its capability with the latter, but apparently Atagos only have one helicopter hangar as opposed to the Burke iia's two. No idea how I let that escape me.

JMSDF selected in placing SSM (8 tubes) over a heli hangar in which it makes sense since there are no permanent placement of helies on them anyways.

As for the 2 in plan I believe they will utilize Gallium nitride technology to enhance the AEGIS system.
 
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I can only hope that lessons learned on Hobart will see more efficiency in build time on the last two.

What do you mean in particular, SouthernSky? (I'm sorry I didn't follow the building of Hobart so please give some link(s), could be a video with an Australian accent heheh)
 
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