AEGIS and AEGIS Like escort combatants of the World

Re: Proposal for a US Navy Ticonderoga AEGIS CG replacement

Jeff Head said:

I have always wondered about taking an AEGIS system and installing it along with an Mk-41 VLS on land with the SM-3 missiles as a point defense for critical land based targets against ballistic missiles...or along the coast for more mid course interception. I believe it could be done.

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A little out of context, but still somewhat related. Wouldn't the task you propose be exactly what the THAAD is ment for? How far has that project come anyway?
Basicly, these two concepts are ment to do the same thing as I understand it.
Well, on land the THAAD might be more mobile while a fixed Mk41 might hold more missiles. But somehow I still wonder if the two programms couldn't be mered. Especially since the missile defence agency now controlls the developent of both systems.

Re: Proposal for a US Navy Ticonderoga AEGIS CG replacement

Scratch said:

A little out of context, but still somewhat related. Wouldn't the task you propose be exactly what the THAAD is ment for? How far has that project come anyway?
Basicly, these two concepts are ment to do the same thing as I understand it.
Well, on land the THAAD might be more mobile while a fixed Mk41 might hold more missiles. But somehow I still wonder if the two programms couldn't be mered. Especially since the missile defence agency now controlls the developent of both systems.

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Actually, this proposal would be more of a point defense solution as opposed to THAAD IMHO. These VLS cells could be located in some numbers...perhaps an 80 cell configuration, right in the vicinity of the targets and then defend against missiles in their terminal trajectories...which BTW, is actually an easier technical solution in terms of HTK.

THAADS is more of a Theater-wide defense and, as I understand it too, would have a mobile capability like the Patriot. Anyhow...it is a sure thing that an 80-cell MK-41, short of being on a ship, would be pretty sttationary...hehehe.

Here's the line art I created for the Indian, INS Kolkata Class (Project 15A) for use on my Aegis and Aegis-like Vessels of the World site, :


Let me know what you think. This vessel competes with and compares to the US Arleigh Burke DDG, the PLAN Lanzhou DDG (Type 052C), the French and Italian Horizon Class vessels, and the UKs Type 45, Daring Class.

They have three of them already built and outifitting with the fourth building, which is the 1st of the upgraded Project 15B vessels. They will ultimately build four of the Project 15B making for seven altogether.

They will make very excellent and worthy escorts for the new Indian and aircraft carriers.

Specs:

Length: 535 ft (163m)
Beam: 57 ft (17.5m)
Draft: 17 ft (5m)
Displace (Full Load): 6,800 tons
Propulsion: COGAG: Zorya 2 × M36E gas turbine plants
- 4 × DT-59 reversible gas turbines
- 2 × RG-54 gearboxes
- 2 × Bergen/GRSE KVM-diesel engines, 9,900 hp/ea
- 4 × 1mWe Wärtsilä WCM-1000 generator sets driving - Cummins KTA50G3 engines and Kirloskar 1MV AC generators
- Two shafts
Speed: 30+ knots
Range: 8,000 nautical miles (18 knots - est)
Crew: 250 (est.)
Sensors:
- IAI EL/M-2248 MF-STAR AESA
- IAI EL/M-2238 L-band STAR surveillance radar
- BEL HUMSA-NG sonar
- BEL RAWL-02 /Thales LW-08 D-band air search radar
- BEL Nagin active towed array sonar
- BEL Electronic (EMCCA Mk4) combat management system
Armament:
- 1 x 130 mm gun
- 4 x 4 Brahmos 2 Supersonic Cruise Missiles
- 2 x 32 cell Barak 8 SAM
- 4 x 8 CIWS Barak 1 SAM
- 2 x 30mm CIWS AK-630
- 2 x 3 ASW torpedo launchers
- 2 x RBU-6000 ASW Rockets
Ships in class: 3 built, 4 more planned
- 1 commisisoned Sep 2012
- 1 to commission Jun 2013
- 1 to commission Mar 2014
Helicopter(s):
- 2 x Sea King or HAL Dhruv helicopters

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

Looks good Jeff

Recently An Indian Naval task force visited Shanghai.
the webmaster on HSH site who went on the media tour commented on the poor internal wiring arrangements and welds.

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

i.e. said:

Looks good Jeff

Recently An Indian Naval task force visited Shanghai.
the webmaster on HSH site who went on the media tour commented on the poor internal wiring arrangements and welds.

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I believe you will find that these newer ship are better built. They are learning as the go. From the Delhi's back, not so good. From the Talwar's forward...better.

The Vikramaditya will be Russian built and refit...so will be very rugged and heavy duty, but rough around the edges. We shall see how well they do with :

1) Their new Vikrant carrier, and
2) Their new nuclea SSBN sub.

...and we must throw this one in there as well, the Kolkata itself, 1st in class, was acttually launched in 2006 and they have waited this many years for it to get the right propulsion from the Ukraine, and their own indegenous sensor and weapons fit. The third was launched in 2010...and they are well under way on the fourth now, which will be the first Project 15B variety.

By 2015-2016 they should have five of them and then all seven by late 2017 or so.

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

Jeff, I visited your website about Indian Kolkata Class DDG, on the right side you put some photos of the DDG during construction in somewhere Indian shipyard ... where is it ? I am so shocked to see how dirty and unorganised the shipyard is.

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

Jeff Head said:

I believe you will find that these newer ship are better built. They are learning as the go. From the Delhi's back, not so good. From the Talwar's forward...better.

The Vikramaditya will be Russian built and refit...so will be very rugged and heavy duty, but rough around the edges. We shall see how well they do with :

1) Their new Vikrant carrier, and
2) Their new nuclea SSBN sub.

...and we must throw this one in there as well, the Kolkata itself, 1st in class, was acttually launched in 2006 and they have waited this many years for it to get the right propulsion from the Ukraine, and their own indegenous sensor and weapons fit. The third was launched in 2010...and they are well under way on the fourth now, which will be the first Project 15B variety.

By 2015-2016 they should have five of them and then all seven by late 2017 or so.

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Of course not meaning to start a heated comparison, but I think the taskgroup which went to shanghai were actually newer vessels. I know for a fact one of them was a shivalik class frigate (the newest major surface combatant class of the IN to enter service). But of course there was also a rajput class DDG and corvette and italian built deepak class tanker.

So we don't really know which class of vessel this person is talking about, that is if their opinion is one we should listen to at all.

I feel like the ships the IN are pumping out are increasingly capable but production is much too slow. Kolkata has been under construction for something like ten years now.

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The line drawing of the kolkata is great as well.
Although kolkata will be at the low end of the AAW DDGs of the world, mostly because of the relatively low range of its main SAM (barak 8, 70 km) and relatively less powerful APAR (>250 km for high flying aircraft compared to the 400+ km of type 052C and daring's APAR). But it is certainly very powerful in other areas, such as the 16 brahmos missiles (regardless of the supersonic-subsonic debate), and the barak 1 point defence SAMs with the two AK630s make for a potent ciws, not to mention the facility for two helicopters.

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

Bltizo said:

Of course not meaning to start a heated comparison, but I think the taskgroup which went to shanghai were actually newer vessels. I know for a fact one of them was a shivalik class frigate (the newest major surface combatant class of the IN to enter service). But of course there was also a rajput class DDG and corvette and italian built deepak class tanker.

So we don't really know which class of vessel this person is talking about, that is if their opinion is one we should listen to at all.

I feel like the ships the IN are pumping out are increasingly capable but production is much too slow. Kolkata has been under construction for something like ten years now.

---

The line drawing of the kolkata is great as well.
Although kolkata will be at the low end of the AAW DDGs of the world, mostly because of the relatively low range of its main SAM (barak 8, 70 km) and relatively less powerful APAR (>250 km for high flying aircraft compared to the 400+ km of type 052C and daring's APAR). But it is certainly very powerful in other areas, such as the 16 brahmos missiles (regardless of the supersonic-subsonic debate), and the barak 1 point defence SAMs with the two AK630s make for a potent ciws, not to mention the facility for two helicopters.

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Agree with pretty much all of that.

I would be surprised if the Shivalik continued in the earlier shoddy manufacturng.

As to the long construction time, they actually launched each vessel ffairly quickly in 2008, 2009, and 2010. They have been waiting on their own indegenous battle management and sensors, as well as particularly the final pieces of the Ukraining part of their propuslion. I believe this accounted for the dely and now that they ahve them, the outfitting is proceeding (as the pictures at my site shows) faiorly quickly. The will commission one thios year, one next year, and another in 2014. Then the four Project 15B will start coming out and they intend to have all seven commissioned bylate 2016 or 2018...and the Proj 15B will have the ER-Barak with I believe 110kn range which will help.

IMHO, seven such vessels, coupled with their new frigates will make very adequate escorts for their carriers.

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

Bltizo said:

Of course not meaning to start a heated comparison, but I think the taskgroup which went to shanghai were actually newer vessels. I know for a fact one of them was a shivalik class frigate (the newest major surface combatant class of the IN to enter service). But of course there was also a rajput class DDG and corvette and italian built deepak class tanker.

So we don't really know which class of vessel this person is talking about, that is if their opinion is one we should listen to at all.

I feel like the ships the IN are pumping out are increasingly capable but production is much too slow. Kolkata has been under construction for something like ten years now.

---

The line drawing of the kolkata is great as well.
Although kolkata will be at the low end of the AAW DDGs of the world, mostly because of the relatively low range of its main SAM (barak 8, 70 km) and relatively less powerful APAR (>250 km for high flying aircraft compared to the 400+ km of type 052C and daring's APAR). But it is certainly very powerful in other areas, such as the 16 brahmos missiles (regardless of the supersonic-subsonic debate), and the barak 1 point defence SAMs with the two AK630s make for a potent ciws, not to mention the facility for two helicopters.

Click to expand...

Half or more then that of Indian Navy frigates are of New generation and INS Shivalik is not the newest of Frigates, while the same cannot be said with Indian Navy Destroyers, which are comparatively of older generation, the entry of Kolkata class will register new generation Destroyers for Indian Navy but unfortunately Barak-8 Air defence and radar components are still passing through testing phase causing the main reason for delay.

I thought Type 052C Destroyers have Air Defence capabilities upto 200km.

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

regarding Kolkata Class, India has been working on them for over 10 years and we are yet to see 1st to be commissioned and theres a good reason for it

for Kolkata India imported from

Israel
EL/M-2221 STGR Fire control radar
Barak-1
E/M-2248 MF-STAR Multifuntion radar
Barak-8

from Netherlands
LW-08 Air Search Radar

from Russia
3M-54 Klub/SS-N-27 Anti-ship MI/SSM
MR-90/Front Dome Fire control radar
9M317/SA-17 Grizzly SAM
AK-100 100mm Naval gun
AK-630 30mm Naval gun
Kite Screech Fire control radar
MR-123/Bass Tilt Fire control radar
RBU-6000 ASW MRL
SET-65E ASW torpedo
Garpun/Plank Shave Air search radar

from Ukarine
DT-59 Gas turbine

in addition many sub-contractors went to outside countrys, this results in many different issues and problems, added to this, Indian military continues to change its requirments while the Indian goverment constantly trys to fit the ship to their requirments, so by the times the ship is built it has deviated far from its intial purpose, like Arjun MBT story

4 more have been ordered but i cant see them entering service anytime soon, infact equipment for Kolkata was ordered as far back as 2000 thats