956em sovs

adeptitus

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Gauntlet said:
SinoDefence have a small confusing error on their Sovremenny section. They state that the two 956Es uses "SA-N-7 Grizzly" but there is no such thing! Its either SA-N-7 "Gadfly" or SA-N-12 "Grizzly.
The first batch (first 2) of the PLAN Sovremennys were the 956E, but were known in Russian service as the 956A. The 956A uses the Grizzly instead of the Gadfly, and therefore I belive the Chinese 956E and EM uses the Grizzly.

The 9K38 (SA-17/SA-N-12) is just an improved variant of 9K37 (SA-11/SA-N-7), given a different NATO name. Wikipedia lists the 9K38 as entering production in 1998, that might be too late for installation on the first batch PLAN Sovremenny ships (delivered in 1999).

There' s a whole lot of confusion between Russian missile names and NATO names. If you look at the Wiki entry for Delhi Destroyer:
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2 x 3S-90 launchers fitted with Shtil surface-to-air missile system. Shtil comprises the 9M38M1 (NATO: SA-N-7, a navalised SA-11) missile and 24 missiles are carried in a below-decks magazine.

I think the 9M38M1 is used on navalized 9K38 (SA-17/SA-N-12/Grizzly) system and NOT 9K37 (SA-11/SA-N-7/Gadfly) system.
 
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Gauntlet

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I thought the Grizzly series were the 9M317 in Russian designation.

And as said, the 956E is the same as the 956A in Russian service, and it's therefore likely that it uses the Grizzly.
 

adeptitus

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Gauntlet said:
I thought the Grizzly series were the 9M317 in Russian designation.
And as said, the 956E is the same as the 956A in Russian service, and it's therefore likely that it uses the Grizzly.

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The 9K38 "Buk-M1-2" (Russian Бук - beech, NATO reporting name SA-17 "Grizzly") is the continuation of the series of Russian surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) which started with the 3M9 "Kub" (SA-6 Gainful) and 9K37 "Buk" SA-11 Gadfly. It was completed in 1995 and introduced in 1998 and utilises at least two kinds of missiles, the 9M38M1 or later 9M317.

Janes article:
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JANE'S MISSILES AND ROCKETS - DECEMBER 01, 2004
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Russia moves to vertical-launch Shtil
Miroslav Gyürösi

Russia is offering a vertical-launch (VL) version of the Shtil-1 naval surface-to-air missile (SAM) system, writes Miroslav Gyürösi. The move from a system based on trainable launchers to one based on below-deck VL modules is similar to that taken by the US Navy in the mid-1980s when it switched from a Mk 26 trainable launcher to a VL system for the sixth and subsequent Ticonderoga-class Aegis cruisers.

Russian Public Joint Stock Company DNPP (Dolgoprudnenskoye naucsno - proizvodstvennoye predpriyatie), which is part of the Almaz-Antey Air Defence Concern, developed the new 9M317ME SAM as an upgrade for the Shtil-1 naval air-defence system. Developed by the Altair Naval Radio Electronics Scientific Institute Public Joint Stock Company, which is also a member of the Almaz-Antey Air Defence Concern, Shtil-1 is an improved version of the earlier Shtil system that is the export variant of the M-22 Uragan system fitted to the Project 956 (Sovremenny-class) destroyers.

The 9M38 missile was developed in the 1970s to be a common round for the land-based 9K37 Buk (SA-11 'Gadfly') and naval Uragan/Shtil (SA-N-7 'Gadfly') system. It used a configuration similar to that of the US Standard Missile, with cruciform wings of long chord and short span, plus cruciform tail surfaces. In the land-based system, the 9M38 was fired from 9A38 and 9A310 self-propelled launch vehicles, while the naval Shtil and Shtil-1 systems used a trainable launcher fed by a below-deck loading system based on 12-cell drum magazines.

In the early 1990s, development started on an improved 9M317 missile able to replace the 9M38. This armed the Buk-M1-2 (SA-17 'Grizzly') system, which entered service with the Russian Army in 1998. The 9M317 was similar in configuration to the 9M38 but the cruciform wings were of much smaller chord and span.

The new 9M317ME missile is being marketed as a further development of the older 9M38 and 9M317 but the changes are on a scale that makes the round almost a new missile. It is designed to be fired from a cylindrical container/launcher mounted in a cell within the new Shtil-1 VL system. This arrangement provides a much higher rate of fire than the original trainable launcher and magazine system used in Shtil and Shtil-1. The latter could fire a missile every six seconds, but the 9M317ME-based system being offered for Sovremenny-class destroyers can fire rounds at one-to-two-second intervals.

The new launch technique has required drastic changes to the configuration of the missile. The long-chord wings have been replaced by vestigial fixed surfaces located not on the missile centrebody but near the rear of the airframe just ahead of the cruciform tail surfaces. These fixed surfaces may be intended to control the airflow passing the tail fins. The latter move to steer the missile - the same control scheme used on the 9M38 - but are folded to allow the round to be stored in the container/launcher.

The 9M317ME is 5.18 m long and 360 mm in diameter. The tail surfaces have a span of 820 mm when deployed.

After the round leaves the VL, a spring mechanism unfolds the tail surfaces and four gas-control vanes operating in the motor efflux turn the missile towards the required direction of flight. Once this turnover manoeuvre is completed, the gas-control vanes are no longer used. Subsequent flight control is via the moving tail surfaces.

A dual-mode solid-propellant rocket motor based on a more energetic charge than that used in the 9M38 provides the missile with a maximum speed of Mach 4.5 (1,550 m/s), a significant increase over the Mach 3.0 (1,230 m/s) of the older missile.

Guidance remains a combination of inertial and semi-active radar (SAR) homing. Inertial guidance is used in the early stages of flight and then the SAR seeker is activated to complete the interception. If the missile is being fired against long-range targets, it can receive mid-course updates while flying under inertial control. Launch weight of the 9M317ME is 581 kg. It is armed with a 62 kg warhead initiated by a dual-mode (active or semi-active) radar proximity fuze, or a contact fuze.

The range of the modernised Shtil-1 system is between 3.5-32 km, while the altitude coverage is from 5 m up to 15 km. These limits are set not by the performance of the missile but by the capabilities of the existing shipboard illuminating radars. This suggests further growth potential if the system is upgraded or if new radars are added.

The VL version of Shtil-1 is being offered for surface ships with displacement of more than 1,500 tonnes, providing protection against aircraft, helicopters, fast patrol boats and anti-ship missiles. It can also control the ship's guns. Publicly, no claims are being made for an anti-ballistic missile (ABM) capability, but the land-based 3M317 missile is reported to have successfully engaged Smerch artillery rockets and a ballistic missile during tests conducted in the mid-1990s. The VL system's ability to cope with tactical ballistic-missile threats may be limited by the performance of the existing shipboard radars.

The basic VL module contains 12 9M317ME missiles but, as with the unmodified Shtil and Shtil-1 systems, the upgrade is being offered in a series of optional configurations, which add greater numbers of MR-90 Orekh ('Front Dome') target-illumination radars and additional VL modules. All variants use target information from the ship's 3D surveillance radar.

Vertical-launch Shtil-1 configurations

Technical characteristic Option number
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Reaction time, [seconds] 5 - 10 5 - 10 5 - 10 5 - 10 5 - 10 5 - 10 5 - 10 5 - 10
Firing interval [seconds] 2 - 3 2 - 3 2 - 3 1 - 2 1 - 2 1 - 2 1 - 2 1 - 2
Number of target channels 2 4 4 6 8 8 10 12
Magazine capacity [rounds] 12 24 36 48 - 72 72 108 108 - 144 144
Number of VL modules 1 2 3 4 - 6 6 9 9 - 12 12
 

MIGleader

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Do the new sovs have the 9m38 than? i would expect air defence to be one of the plan's requirements for the ship.
 

tphuang

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MIGleader said:
Do the new sovs have the 9m38 than? i would expect air defence to be one of the plan's requirements for the ship.
956EM and 052B should both be use 9M317E. This is according to Kanwa. Also of note, 956EM installed 6 orekh radar -> 12 concurrent engagements possible.

The range vs AShM is 8 to 12 KM (I'm guessing this is talking about the sea-skimming type) and the range vs plane flying below 1 KM is 15 to 18 KM.
 

MIGleader

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Are you sure? I thought the systme could direct 12 missles, but only agianst six targets.

From what i know, the 9m38(which is not as advnaced as 9m317e) has a 38km range agianst aircraft, and a 20km rnage agianst ashm(perhaps not sea skimming ones). Isnt 18km agianst aircraft cutting the missle a bit short?
 

tphuang

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yeah, the range does seem a little short. I think it's more of a radar limitation issue than the missile issue. Anyhow, the article is this one:
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I think 12 and 6 is for rif-m. To be honest, that's kind of pathetic. I'm guessing 052C's radar should be able to track and engage a lot more.
 

crobato

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Its still an SARH, it can only go as far as how many illuminators can support it. Mind you, it won't be able to handle six AshMs if they call come in one direction, as you can't point all your illuminators in that one direction. AEGIS gets away with time sharing, all the missiles being command guided at flight, and only use illumination on the missiles that reach terminal range. I don't know if Shtil-1 does this.
 

MIGleader

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This is interesting. From a fischer article, it said the MAE-5(top plate) can detect+track a fighter size target out to 230km, and 50km for cruise missles . There are four such radars on the 52B, and six on the sovremenny.

Now, the actual Front Dome guidance radar has a range of only 30km(sucks). Assuming the 9m317E has some kind of terminal guidance on it, the stated range of 38km(of the 9m317e/9m38) on the 52b is not too unreasonable(the r-27 has a lock on range of 15km).

since the 956em sovs have many new sensors, or upgraded sensors, it would be unwise to make any judgements on it now.
 

tphuang

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MIGleader said:
This is interesting. From a fischer article, it said the MAE-5(top plate) can detect+track a fighter size target out to 230km, and 50km for cruise missles . There are four such radars on the 52B, and six on the sovremenny.

Now, the actual Front Dome guidance radar has a range of only 30km(sucks). Assuming the 9m317E has some kind of terminal guidance on it, the stated range of 38km(of the 9m317e/9m38) on the 52b is not too unreasonable(the r-27 has a lock on range of 15km).

since the 956em sovs have many new sensors, or upgraded sensors, it would be unwise to make any judgements on it now.
Note, it did also mention in the article that the range vs planes over 1000 KM in altitude is 32KM. (still less than the 38KM mentionned in many other places)

Actually, most of the sensors on 956EM are upgraded ones from 956E. There are not too many new sensors. I suspect 052B probably uses similar sensors and sonars. I guess that's why kanwa calls it the Chinese Sov.

As for top plate, I think it's on sovs and the 052B/C. I don't think it's the same as Orekh (whose code is MR-90). Orekh is used to guide the missiles. So, it would have to be the "Front Dome" radar mentionned.
 
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