956em sovs

Re: Type 052 (Luhu Class)

antiterror13 said:

Agree, but the Sovs, especially the last two are very capable destroyers. The Sunburns are very potent

Not sure whether the Sunburns can get the target data from Chinese radar, but heyyyy .. the Chinese will find a way, they are well known to reverse engineer almost anything you can think of. Even without Chinese radars, they are still very capable AShM and DDG

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Sunburns aren't nearly as potent nowadays, when the operating principle is saturation of enemy air defenses. Pretty much any modern destroyer's defenses can handle Mach 2 missiles. IMO the Sov would do far better to carry 16 YJ-8's than 8 Sunburns.

Re: Type 052 (Luhu Class)

antiterror13 said:

I do understand the Sovs engines are not too "good" for long journey.

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Why? I don't they have been used very much at all so they must have some decent mileage left in them.

Re: Type 052 (Luhu Class)

Mysterre said:

Sunburns aren't nearly as potent nowadays, when the operating principle is saturation of enemy air defenses. Pretty much any modern destroyer's defenses can handle Mach 2 missiles. IMO the Sov would do far better to carry 16 YJ-8's than 8 Sunburns.

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I would not count supersonic missiles out so easily. Until missile based CIWS becomes standard on all ships, supersonics still has the big advantage of all but bypassing the final lay of defences since even if a gun based CIWS hits it, at the ranges gun based CIWS are effective and the speed of the missile, there is a very good chance that the missile remains will still hit the ship with enough force to go significant damage.

I think that since the Sovs are in effect one-trick ponies, they should be used as such. The sunburns have a hell of a punch on them, and if employed at medium to close range (50-20km) in a first engagement situation, they may well be able to strike a killing blow on an enemy ship by bypassing most of the lays of the enemy ship's defences. Something to note about SM2 and ESSM armed ships is that those missiles need illuminators, and even with time sharing, a single illuminators can only effectively guide 4-6 missiles.

Normally, that is not a problem because the defending ship can fire SAMs in waves and pick an incoming missile wave off 4-6 missiles at a time and rack up a massive number of possible engagement cycles over the range of the SAMs.

However, if the two ships are close and the Sov fires off all its missiles in one volley, the defender might only get a single engagement cycle in before the sunburns impact, and that would be enough saturation to have a good chance of getting one or two sunburns through without intercept even if we assume the defenders are 100% successful and shoots down everything they aim at, which is a little optimistic. With the speed and weight of the warhead on the sunburns, even a single hit or two would likely sink anything up to cruiser size.

Based on these attributes, I think the Sovs would be perfect to take point if territorial disputes escalate to the point where PLAN ships get involved and there is a good chance of an actual shooting war.

Since this is a first engagement situation, you don't need to worry about getting the Sov in range, which was the biggest problem with trying to use them in an actual shooting war. Again, when you are only 50-20km from your target, the Sov's lack of long range SAMs is not much of a shortcoming, and as already pointed out, it packs a big enough punch that if it strikes, there is a very good chance it will kill whatever it hits. That scary alpha strike capabilities lends the Sov a lot of intimidation power, and you can bet any captain ordered to play chicken with a Sov is not going to be getting many bright idea about trying anything funny.

The Sovs use Russian systems, so the PLAN has more flexibility in that if they do decide to actually lock weapons on another ship/Plane to make a point, they are not compromising the rest of the PLAN's frequencies, and if worst comes to worst, loosing a Sov is better than loosing an 052C or even 054A, since the ships taking point also runs the greatest risks if a stand off suddenly turns hot.

Re: Type 052 (Luhu Class)

plawolf said:

I would not count supersonic missiles out so easily. Until missile based CIWS becomes standard on all ships, supersonics still has the big advantage of all but bypassing the final lay of defences since even if a gun based CIWS hits it, at the ranges gun based CIWS are effective and the speed of the missile, there is a very good chance that the missile remains will still hit the ship with enough force to go significant damage.

I think that since the Sovs are in effect one-trick ponies, they should be used as such. The sunburns have a hell of a punch on them, and if employed at medium to close range (50-20km) in a first engagement situation, they may well be able to strike a killing blow on an enemy ship by bypassing most of the lays of the enemy ship's defences. Something to note about SM2 and ESSM armed ships is that those missiles need illuminators, and even with time sharing, a single illuminators can only effectively guide 4-6 missiles.

Normally, that is not a problem because the defending ship can fire SAMs in waves and pick an incoming missile wave off 4-6 missiles at a time and rack up a massive number of possible engagement cycles over the range of the SAMs.

However, if the two ships are close and the Sov fires off all its missiles in one volley, the defender might only get a single engagement cycle in before the sunburns impact, and that would be enough saturation to have a good chance of getting one or two sunburns through without intercept even if we assume the defenders are 100% successful and shoots down everything they aim at, which is a little optimistic. With the speed and weight of the warhead on the sunburns, even a single hit or two would likely sink anything up to cruiser size.

Based on these attributes, I think the Sovs would be perfect to take point if territorial disputes escalate to the point where PLAN ships get involved and there is a good chance of an actual shooting war.

Since this is a first engagement situation, you don't need to worry about getting the Sov in range, which was the biggest problem with trying to use them in an actual shooting war. Again, when you are only 50-20km from your target, the Sov's lack of long range SAMs is not much of a shortcoming, and as already pointed out, it packs a big enough punch that if it strikes, there is a very good chance it will kill whatever it hits. That scary alpha strike capabilities lends the Sov a lot of intimidation power, and you can bet any captain ordered to play chicken with a Sov is not going to be getting many bright idea about trying anything funny.

The Sovs use Russian systems, so the PLAN has more flexibility in that if they do decide to actually lock weapons on another ship/Plane to make a point, they are not compromising the rest of the PLAN's frequencies, and if worst comes to worst, loosing a Sov is better than loosing an 052C or even 054A, since the ships taking point also runs the greatest risks if a stand off suddenly turns hot.

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Your premise hinges on the Sov getting close to the enemy ship before launching a missile. I think this is not a realistic scenario to plan for. Even if you could fool the enemy into thinking you were just planning on 'posturing' and not fighting, you could not pull it off with more than a few ships. What this means is that you are basically sacrificing those ships to the enemy after you first-launch those Sunburns because the Sov will not have any backup from a fleet. Even with the PLAN building ships at a brisk pace it would not be foolish enough to do something like letting the Sov go off on its own so it could launch its missiles, try and kill an enemy ship, then get killed itself as it tries to run. And the more backup you provide the Sov on its one-way trip to the Locker, the less likely your ruse will succeed and the more likely the enemy will disengage and then call for more backup.

IMO the Sov's only usefulness in antiship warfare is against 2nd rate navies with poor air defenses and poor situational awareness. Perhaps it could be useful in tight constrained spaces like the Taiwan Strait if the Taiwanese navy were somehow stupid enough to get caught on the west side of the island at the onset of hostilities. No modern navy would allow the Sov to get within 120km to launch its Sunburns, nor would they be unable to handle its supersonic speed.

Re: Type 052 (Luhu Class)

Mysterre said:

IMO the Sov's only usefulness in antiship warfare is against 2nd rate navies with poor air defenses and poor situational awareness. Perhaps it could be useful in tight constrained spaces like the Taiwan Strait if the Taiwanese navy were somehow stupid enough to get caught on the west side of the island at the onset of hostilities. No modern navy would allow the Sov to get within 120km to launch its Sunburns, nor would they be unable to handle its supersonic speed.

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PLAN receive the sunburn block 2 upgrade of range to 240km... Of cos, for fighting against a very modern navy. Even that range might still be not enough.

Re: Type 052 (Luhu Class)

Lion said:

PLAN receive the sunburn block 2 upgrade of range to 240km... Of cos, for fighting against a very modern navy. Even that range might still be not enough.

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I believe the 3M80E has a range of 200km. But I guess it depends on what modern navy you're referring to. Against the USN, you need a ship-launched range that is outside the combat radius of its F-18's with antishipping loads, i.e. 500-600km. Against the Japanese or Korean navies that don't have ship-based fixed wing aircraft, then it's whatever is outside the range of their shore-based fighters which will vary depending on where they are, or if they are operating outside the range of their air cover, then whatever can outrange their Harpoon and Hae Sung ASCM's. If either of these navies get their hands on the SM-6, then these missiles will come into play in the long range antishipping role as well.

Re: Type 052 (Luhu Class)

Mysterre said:

Your premise hinges on the Sov getting close to the enemy ship before launching a missile. I think this is not a realistic scenario to plan for. Even if you could fool the enemy into thinking you were just planning on 'posturing' and not fighting, you could not pull it off with more than a few ships. What this means is that you are basically sacrificing those ships to the enemy after you first-launch those Sunburns because the Sov will not have any backup from a fleet. Even with the PLAN building ships at a brisk pace it would not be foolish enough to do something like letting the Sov go off on its own so it could launch its missiles, try and kill an enemy ship, then get killed itself as it tries to run. And the more backup you provide the Sov on its one-way trip to the Locker, the less likely your ruse will succeed and the more likely the enemy will disengage and then call for more backup.

IMO the Sov's only usefulness in antiship warfare is against 2nd rate navies with poor air defenses and poor situational awareness. Perhaps it could be useful in tight constrained spaces like the Taiwan Strait if the Taiwanese navy were somehow stupid enough to get caught on the west side of the island at the onset of hostilities. No modern navy would allow the Sov to get within 120km to launch its Sunburns, nor would they be unable to handle its supersonic speed.

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The whole gist of my suggestion was that Sovs be sent in before hostilities had broken out. If the navy trying to face off against the PLAN wants to keep their surface ships at least 120km away from the Sov, well, job done really isn't it? Since the Sov would have won that stand off and strengthened China's claim as the other side is seen to back down and pull out of disputed waters.

The primary objective is to use their formidable alpha strike capablility to keep captains and ships that might be facing off against it in disputed waters honest, thereby reducing chance of unintended wars. The secondary consideration is that the Sovs pretty much have the best chance of any PLAN surface ship to win a medium to close range one-on-one warship dual with any opponent from any navy China has territorial disputes with. It is a one-off special mission, and not one to be repeated after hostilities have actually broken out.

In the case of Japan, the Sov would not be more than 300nm from the Chinese coast, likely significantly closer, and during such heightened times, there are bound to be more PLAN assets tasked with a supporting role not far away, with massive air support on short alert standby. The Sov could have a CAP overhead in minutes after a shoot out, and certainly before any Japanese fighters are anywhere near firing range. With surface support ships able to meet up with it within a few hours depending on how far they had been held back. The PLAN could even have a sub or two follow the Sov closely to guard against Japanese subs.

The Japanese would need to have planned and executed a coordinated alpha strike of their own involving multiple assets to have a realistic chance of killing the Sov before it linked up with massive support and become as hard a target to kill as the is within the PLAN. If they were going to do that, it is unlikely that even an 052C would have a much better chance of surviving, since the Japanese alpha strike would have taken into account its better AAW capabilities. And, as I mentioned before, if the Japanese were planning such a mini repeat of Pearl Harbour, it is best that the Sovs be the one to take one for the team, since in terms of combined fleet operations, loosing a Sov would hurt the PLAN the least of any major surface combatant they currently field.

Against any of the SCS dispute nations, well, with no disrespect intended to those countries, but isn't their navies exactly the kind of second rate force you described?

WRT Taiwan, well firstly, things have calmed down massively there and the chances of armed conflict has almost receded into a remote possibility. Certainly, I did not even consider it when I thought of current territorial dispute flashpoints. But even if we assume for the sake of argument that tensions suddenly boiled over somehow, why would the PLAN need or want to send surface ships into the Taiwan strait to kill ROCN ships when shore based YJ62 batteries can engage anything within the strait and much further beyond?

Re: Type 052 (Luhu Class)

plawolf said:

The whole gist of my suggestion was that Sovs be sent in before hostilities had broken out. If the navy trying to face off against the PLAN wants to keep their surface ships at least 120km away from the Sov, well, job done really isn't it? Since the Sov would have won that stand off and strengthened China's claim as the other side is seen to back down and pull out of disputed waters.

The primary objective is to use their formidable alpha strike capablility to keep captains and ships that might be facing off against it in disputed waters honest, thereby reducing chance of unintended wars. The secondary consideration is that the Sovs pretty much have the best chance of any PLAN surface ship to win a medium to close range one-on-one warship dual with any opponent from any navy China has territorial disputes with. It is a one-off special mission, and not one to be repeated after hostilities have actually broken out.

In the case of Japan, the Sov would not be more than 300nm from the Chinese coast, likely significantly closer, and during such heightened times, there are bound to be more PLAN assets tasked with a supporting role not far away, with massive air support on short alert standby. The Sov could have a CAP overhead in minutes after a shoot out, and certainly before any Japanese fighters are anywhere near firing range. With surface support ships able to meet up with it within a few hours depending on how far they had been held back. The PLAN could even have a sub or two follow the Sov closely to guard against Japanese subs.

The Japanese would need to have planned and executed a coordinated alpha strike of their own involving multiple assets to have a realistic chance of killing the Sov before it linked up with massive support and become as hard a target to kill as the is within the PLAN. If they were going to do that, it is unlikely that even an 052C would have a much better chance of surviving, since the Japanese alpha strike would have taken into account its better AAW capabilities. And, as I mentioned before, if the Japanese were planning such a mini repeat of Pearl Harbour, it is best that the Sovs be the one to take one for the team, since in terms of combined fleet operations, loosing a Sov would hurt the PLAN the least of any major surface combatant they currently field.

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Lone ships do not perform alpha strikes. Alpha strikes that have any tactical or strategic value would be something more akin to the Pearl Harbor attack that suddenly and with massive force tries to take out as much of the enemy as possible. What you are laying out here is not an alpha strike so much as another means of giving the Japanese government an official "eff you" and/or "we declare war on Japan". Instead of sending off the Sov out to shoot its eight missiles and pray that it survives, I would rather the PLAN declare the onset of hostilities by sending off a massive swarm of cruise missiles.

plawolf said:

Against any of the SCS dispute nations, well, with no disrespect intended to those countries, but isn't their navies exactly the kind of second rate force you described?

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Yes, also with no disrespect to those countries, I'm talking exactly about those navies.

plawolf said:

WRT Taiwan, well firstly, things have calmed down massively there and the chances of armed conflict has almost receded into a remote possibility. Certainly, I did not even consider it when I thought of current territorial dispute flashpoints. But even if we assume for the sake of argument that tensions suddenly boiled over somehow, why would the PLAN need or want to send surface ships into the Taiwan strait to kill ROCN ships when shore based YJ62 batteries can engage anything within the strait and much further beyond?

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The relationship between ships and naval fighters and/or cruise missiles is the same between ground troops and attack helicopters. Aerial assets can sweep the area clean but cannot hold any territory. PLAN warships will definitely need to be inside the Strait acting as escorts to the amphibious forces, not just to fight any ROCN ships that initially escaped death (or detection) but also providing additional services such as ASW, local air defense, and shore bombardment. We have all seen examples of Ludas being repurposed with deck-side MLRS stations.

Re: Type 052 (Luhu Class)

Mysterre said:

Lone ships do not perform alpha strikes. Alpha strikes that have any tactical or strategic value would be something more akin to the Pearl Harbor attack that suddenly and with massive force tries to take out as much of the enemy as possible. What you are laying out here is not an alpha strike so much as another means of giving the Japanese government an official "eff you" and/or "we declare war on Japan". Instead of sending off the Sov out to shoot its eight missiles and pray that it survives, I would rather the PLAN declare the onset of hostilities by sending off a massive swarm of cruise missiles.

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How did this become an issue of how best to launch an alpha strike against Japan to declare war? The main assumption was that neither side actually wanted to start a war. The Sov is not sent in with the express intention of sinking whatever opposing numbers the Japanese might send in to contest disputed waters as a first act if war.

I think I have made it clear throughout that this is a strictly one-on-one scenario. The primary purpose of sending in a Sov is to use its strong alpha strike capability to make sure no one get any funny idea on the Japanese side. The term 'alpha strike' is strictly meant to refer to the one-on-one scenario, and I am really scratching my head as how you can think of that as meaning a theatre wide first strike as the first step to all out war. Remember that no one actually wants a war, and if shots are fired, the main objective of both governments would be to limit escalation.

The reason I suggested that the Sov also have a robust support force of Air Force fighters and other naval ships ready to short notice to back it up is for prudence sake.

The idea is that while China does not want to actually start a shooting war, it should do whatever it reasonably can to make sure that if there is an unplanned firefight, they have the best chance to win it, and win it quickly. If it was an 052C or 054A facing off against one of Japan's Aegis ships, with both sides packing way more defensive than offensive firepower, any engagement could easily get bogged down, with neither side able to strike a decisive blow on the other. That would be pretty much the worst case scenario, since in that case, when reinforcements from both sides arrive, they would have little choice but to engage in support of their fellows, and you could have half the Japanese and Chinese air forces and navies engaged before anyone can think about trying to stop things from escalating further.

If combats had ceased by the time reinforcements arrive, whether they engage each other becomes a matter of choice, so there is less of a chance that things will spin out of all control without anyone able to do much to stop it.

The relationship between ships and naval fighters and/or cruise missiles is the same between ground troops and attack helicopters. Aerial assets can sweep the area clean but cannot hold any territory. PLAN warships will definitely need to be inside the Strait acting as escorts to the amphibious forces, not just to fight any ROCN ships that initially escaped death (or detection) but also providing additional services such as ASW, local air defense, and shore bombardment. We have all seen examples of Ludas being repurposed with deck-side MLRS stations.

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Yes, I am aware of that, but I was talking specifically about killing ROCN surface ships, which is pretty much the only task a Sov would be all that good at doing. There is no need to send Sovs into the strait to sweep all ROCN surface ships from,the straits as shore based batteries can do that easily enough. When the PLAN go into the strait, it will be to escort the amphibious force and commence fire support missions once they put boots on shore as you said. The Sov is not really suited to any of those missions and would be unlikely to participate in such an operation.

Re: Type 052 (Luhu Class)

plawolf said:

How did this become an issue of how best to launch an alpha strike against Japan to declare war? The main assumption was that neither side actually wanted to start a war. The Sov is not sent in with the express intention of sinking whatever opposing numbers the Japanese might send in to contest disputed waters as a first act if war.

I think I have made it clear throughout that this is a strictly one-on-one scenario. The primary purpose of sending in a Sov is to use its strong alpha strike capability to make sure no one get any funny idea on the Japanese side. The term 'alpha strike' is strictly meant to refer to the one-on-one scenario, and I am really scratching my head as how you can think of that as meaning a theatre wide first strike as the first step to all out war. Remember that no one actually wants a war, and if shots are fired, the main objective of both governments would be to limit escalation.

The reason I suggested that the Sov also have a robust support force of Air Force fighters and other naval ships ready to short notice to back it up is for prudence sake.

The idea is that while China does not want to actually start a shooting war, it should do whatever it reasonably can to make sure that if there is an unplanned firefight, they have the best chance to win it, and win it quickly. If it was an 052C or 054A facing off against one of Japan's Aegis ships, with both sides packing way more defensive than offensive firepower, any engagement could easily get bogged down, with neither side able to strike a decisive blow on the other. That would be pretty much the worst case scenario, since in that case, when reinforcements from both sides arrive, they would have little choice but to engage in support of their fellows, and you could have half the Japanese and Chinese air forces and navies engaged before anyone can think about trying to stop things from escalating further.

If combats had ceased by the time reinforcements arrive, whether they engage each other becomes a matter of choice, so there is less of a chance that things will spin out of all control without anyone able to do much to stop it.

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I'm getting more confused by the post here. Do you really think that an "alpha strike" by a Sov will be interpreted as anything other than a declaration of war, whether or not that was the actual intent? Do you really think that China can get away with "yeah, well I just sunk one of your Kongos. Tough sh*t, deal with it. Now let's not let this get out of hand, shall we?" It is in fact totally surreal the situation that you are describing, sending in a Sov mono a mono to make sure if something gets out of hand the Sov will somehow "take care" of things. What one on one are you talking about where there is an actual chance of a firefight? What idiot PLAN commander would send in a lone destroyer if there was any actual real chance of conflict? In today's world people wring their hands and cry foul if they are illuminated by radars. What would happen if a ship actually gets sunk? War. Period. Even if you fail to land ANY Sunburns (the most likely scenario IMO), you would still get war. Not only that, you have just instantly become the bad guy in the eyes of the entire world, for the absolutely pitful gain of a (possible) single ship down on the other side. The entire Pacific will now array against you, and rightly so, because any Chinese leader dumb enough to permit such an act to happen cannot and should not be trusted to make sound judgments in times of crisis.

plawolf said:

Yes, I am aware of that, but I was talking specifically about killing ROCN surface ships, which is pretty much the only task a Sov would be all that good at doing. There is no need to send Sovs into the strait to sweep all ROCN surface ships from,the straits as shore based batteries can do that easily enough. When the PLAN go into the strait, it will be to escort the amphibious force and commence fire support missions once they put boots on shore as you said. The Sov is not really suited to any of those missions and would be unlikely to participate in such an operation.

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No, you responded to my comment about sending Sovs into the Strait. I didn't say their primary purpose for going into the Strait would be to clear the Strait of ROCN ships, but that the Sunburn would possibly be useful inside a constrained space like the Strait, should the need for its use arise.