2019 India-Pakistani border clash

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schrage musik

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Here is an eyewitness account of the aircraft that came down in Pakistani territory:


The journalist in the video interviews two people. The first one, the younger guy is the one who caught the pilot. The second, older guy is the one who had first seen the aircraft and parachutes landing and he is the one who called the first guy and others to the spot. I'll summarize what they are saying:

First Eyewitness says:
I found him moving around here, and the first thing he asked me when I saw him was "is this India or Pakistan". I replied that you are in India, just to make him feel relaxed so I could catch him... it took me around half an hour.....

She interrupts him:
So you live here and all this happened in front of you and you are the one who caught him?

First Eyewitness:
Yes i was the one who caught him. This other guy phoned me and told me there was an aircraft on fire here.... He (the downed pilot) actually fired 4 or 5 times at me and i barely managed to dodge his shots and then i caught him. Then these other people arrived and 5 or 6 minutes after that the army also arrived and we handed him over to them.

She then turnsto the 2nd eyewitness.

He says:
I live right here and this here is my buddy. i saw the whole scene with my own eyes...the plane crash.. and i called 4-5 people at the time. When the plane crashed, a little while after that i saw one parachute landing on this side of the mountain and another parachute coming down on the other (southern) side of the mountain. When these boys arrived here on this (north) side of the mountain and saw the pilot, the first thing he asked them was: is this india or pakistan? They deliberately told him that this is Indian territory. So he then asked them the name of this village.. they replied that it was named 'kella'. When he heard this he got excited and started raising slogans saying long live India, etc. That made these boys agitated and they started shouting "long live Pakistan Army" and so forth and right then .... (she interrupts him and wraps the interview up).


This is a strong indication that a two seat aircraft was downed. As the witness says he saw one plane and two parachutes, and the probabliity of the two pilots having ejected from two different aircraft at the same time at the same place is extremely low.

This also fits in with the official statement from Pakistani Military earlier today that said of the two aircraft show down, one crashed in Pakistan while the other managed to cross over to Indian territory before crashing. And the reports that they were looking for two more pilots in addition to the one who was caught.
 
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Biscuits

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It also explains the strange incident of MiG 21s being sent to intercept.

The MiGs were never there to intercept alone, they were there as bomb trucks for Flankers, which India's media claimed were there until they abruptly took down that claim when fighters were downed.

This is in line with accepted strategies. Same for PLAAF, you will never see JH-7s being sent to confront alone, but JH-7s CAN appear as supporting craft for J16s or J10s.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
schrage musik said:
Here is an eyewitness account of the aircraft that came down in Pakistani territory:


The journalist in the video interviews two people. The first one, the younger guy is the one who caught the pilot. The second, older guy is the one who had first seen the aircraft and parachutes landing and he is the one who called the first guy and others to the spot. I'll summarize what they are saying:

First Eyewitness says:
I found him moving around here, and the first thing he asked me when I saw him was "is this India or Pakistan". I replied that you are in India, just to make him feel relaxed so I could catch him... it took me around half an hour.....

She interrupts him:
So you live here and all this happened in front of you and you are the one who caught him?

First Eyewitness:
Yes i was the one who caught him. This other guy phoned me and told me there was an aircraft on fire here.... He (the downed pilot) actually fired 4 or 5 times at me and i barely managed to dodge his shots and then i caught him. Then these other people arrived and 5 or 6 minutes after that the army also arrived and we handed him over to them.

She then turnsto the 2nd eyewitness.

He says:
I live right here and this here is my buddy. i saw the whole scene with my own eyes...the plane crash.. and i called 4-5 people at the time. When the plane crashed, a little while after that i saw one parachute landing on this side of the mountain and another parachute coming down on the other (southern) side of the mountain. When these boys arrived here on this (north) side of the mountain and saw the pilot, the first thing he asked them was: is this india or pakistan? They deliberately told him that this is Indian territory. So he then asked them the name of this village.. they replied that it was named 'kella'. When he heard this he got excited and started raising slogans saying long live India, etc. That made these boys agitated and they started shouting "long live Pakistan Army" and so forth and right then .... (she interrupts him and wraps the interview up).


This is a strong indication that a two seat aircraft was downed. As the witness says he saw one plane and two parachutes, and the probabliity of the two pilots having ejected from two different aircraft at the same time at the same place is extremely low.

This also fits in with the official statement from Pakistani Military earlier today that said of the two aircraft show down, one crashed in Pakistan while the other managed to cross over to Indian territory before crashing. And the reports that they were looking for two more pilots in addition to the one who was caught.
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There have been clips posted of a documentary on a MKI squadron with the captured pilot in it. That only proves he was MKI qualified and by itself does not rule out the possibility that he was subsequently transferred to a Mig21 unit.

However, if he was in a twin seater when shot down, it would strongly support (but obviously not definitely so) the earlier claim that the second downed IAF jet was a Flanker, as the pilot of the well photographed Bison could have bailed out over Indian territory or evaded capture.

India did not acknowledge even that they lost any aircraft until irrefutable proof have already been published by Pakistan. So it would be a trivial thing for them to say the captured pilot was piloting the Mig if they recovered the mig pilot and secured the MKI crash site on their end.

Although in this day and age, it seems unlikely you would be able to suppress something like a downed MKI, as nearly everyone has cameraphones, and every available ISR satellite in the world would probably be converging on the area right now. A smoking crash site would be pretty hard to cover up from eyes in space.
 
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schrage musik

Junior Member
Registered Member
plawolf said:
There have been clips posted of a documentary on a MKI squadron with the captured pilot in it. That only proves he was MKI qualified and by itself does not rule out the possibility that he was subsequently transferred to a Mig21 unit.

However, if he was in a twin seater when shot down, it would strongly support (but obviously not definitely so) the earlier claim that the second downed IAF jet was a Flanker, as the pilot of the well photographed Bison could have bailed out over Indian territory or evaded capture.

India did not acknowledge even that they lost any aircraft until irrefutable proof have already been published by Pakistan. So it would be a trivial thing for them to say the captured pilot was piloting the Mig if they recovered the mig pilot and secured the MKI crash site on their end.

Although in this day and age, it seems unlikely you would be able to suppress something like a downed MKI, as nearly everyone has cameraphones, and every available ISR satellite in the world would probably be converging on the area right now. A smoking crash site would be pretty hard to cover up from eyes in space.
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Yes, I'm aware of that documentary: he is/was definitely an MKI driver. The Indians on some forums are however claiming that he went on to fly Mig 21s after being on the MKI. I dont know how much sense that makes? In view of the eyewitness accounts it is looking increasingly likely that he was in a two seat aircraft when shot down. A big big pointer towards a flanker.

Also, it is possible that the footage of the crash from Kashmir is of a helicopter. The second aircraft that was shot down may possibly have crashed at some other remote location. The region is highly mountainous and sparsely populated. It is quite possible for the Indians to seal off access to a crash site in those remote mountains. They are not saying a word, either.
 
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plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
schrage musik said:
Yes, I'm aware of that documentary: he is/was definitely an MKI driver. The Indians on some forums are however claiming that he went on to fly Mig 21s after being on the MKI. I dont know how much sense that makes? In view of the eyewitness accounts it is looking increasingly likely that he was in a two seat aircraft when shot down. A big big pointer towards a flanker.

Also, it is possible that the footage of the crash from Kashmir is of a helicopter. The second aircraft that was shot down may possibly have crashed at some other remote location. The Indians are not saying a word, however.
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In the documentary, he looked much younger.

There are only so many command positions in any fighter unit.

As such, it would not really be unusual for a MKI driver to move to another unit flying a different type if it meant he would be commanding said unit instead of just being another pilot in a MKI unit.

If he has command aspirations (which would be natural if he is the son of a formal Air Marshal as reported), then it wouldn’t be that surprising if he placed command opportunities above what he was flying.
 
AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I guess the National Interest got their war they've been pushing for. If these reports are true, not what they were expecting and getting excited over in pushing other countries into war. The media played up the Indian strike as an uncontested success. Now these air battles are painting another picture to where as reports come in, they all of the sudden want to be careful with what's reported.

Is the walrus mustache a legacy of British colonialism?
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
localizer said:
Jesus CHrist. Is it possible for Modi to resign after this?
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I think that must be the best cast scenario here, as he will get absolutely obliterated in the upcoming elections as things stand.

If he wants to remain as PM, then he will need to double down and try and produce a military victory to eclipse this humiliating loss, but that would mean yet another escalation, which could easily spiral out of all control.
 
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