2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

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SampanViking

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It is worth noting that the Kremlin has denied any order to storm Ukrainian held positions in the Crimea.

I would also remind people that Putin is from an Intelligence background and is most likely to want to use that aspect to achieve as many of his objectives here as possible. This means owning and utilising detailed and significant information about key individuals throughout the Ukraine to either coerce or seduce to his cause.

In spite of the increasingly overblown rhetoric being produced, there has so far been no fighting and nobody actually hurt or killed. I am sure that Putin will wish things to remain this way for as long as possible, until he has no other option and is able to lay the blame for the commencement of violence at his opponents door.

The reality of Putin (often lost in media translation) is that he is the embodiment of talking softly and carrying a big stick. To him the military is the alternative option and not his first.
If this were not the case the tanks and jets would be streaming towards Kiev already.
 
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Mr T

Senior Member
It is worth noting that the Kremlin has denied any order to storm Ukrainian held positions in the Crimea.

They also denied their troops were the ones at the airport, etc. The Kremlin will say anything to get a small advantage. But I'm willing to accept the local commander(s) may have exceeded their authority.

I would also remind people that Putin is from an Intelligence background

That just makes him think he knows everything and can predict any scenario. He likes to believe he's clever - doesn't mean that he is.

In spite of the increasingly overblown rhetoric being produced, there has so far been no fighting and nobody actually hurt or killed. I am sure that Putin will wish things to remain this way for as long as possible

Indeed, but that doesn't mean he won't miscalculate things and make a mistake.

If this were not the case the tanks and jets would be streaming towards Kiev already.

It's true he's not a mad warmonger. But any sane leader would know they couldn't occupy a whole country like Ukraine on a pretext - especially when he started the military confrontation in the first place. As cautious as NATO states are being right now, at the least they would take serious economic action if the Russian army marched on the Ukrainian capital.

EDIT: And what's this about the Russian envoy to the UN showing a letter from the ex-Ukrainian president asking for military intervention? A pretext for escalation or a rather weak attempt to show Russia is restrained?
 
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asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
It is worth noting that the Kremlin has denied any order to storm Ukrainian held positions in the Crimea.

I would also remind people that Putin is from an Intelligence background and is most likely to want to use that aspect to achieve as many of his objectives here as possible. This means owning and utilising detailed and significant information about key individuals throughout the Ukraine to either coerce or seduce to his cause.

In spite of the increasingly overblown rhetoric being produced, there has so far been no fighting and nobody actually hurt or killed. I am sure that Putin will wish things to remain this way for as long as possible, until he has no other option and is able to lay the blame for the commencement of violence at his opponents door.

The reality of Putin (often lost in media translation) is that he is the embodiment of talking softly and carrying a big stick. To him the military is the alternative option and not his first.
If this were not the case the tanks and jets would be streaming towards Kiev already.

No Putin is not interested in Kiev he's not even interested in areas which are not Russian majority

He is only concerned with areas which are Russian majority that's it which includes Crimea

Russia going into Kiev is a very far fetched story
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
He'll have to share it with emerging Turkey which surely can be friend/foe in the blink of an eye in 10-20 years perspective with an army which will surely be able stand up to whatever Russia will try in this area.

Russia would not want to start picking fights with Turkey as Turkey is a full standing NATO member and no country to mess around with as it had the second largest standing army inside NATO

Plus if Russia threatens Turkey automatically they are playing war with many of Turkeys biggest allies and friends like Pakistan, Russia still refuses to deal with Pakistan over many issues especially related to the military as they remember the lessons of the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan and Pakistans resolve to stop them advancing any further, the Pakistan-Soviet air war between 1983 to 1989 is a testimony to that
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Would anyone be surprised that this wasn't just Ukrainian domestic politics that spurred the events leading up to this? Ever since the Arab Spring to which then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said she was inspired, we've been seeing an uptick of others around the world carrying out the actions that just happen to work also for other's interests. It's like the use of drones have taken over traditional forms of military action. Why? Because the blowback and risks of American lives, which easily turns off voters, is minimal. Other people have now become the drones. Am I saying other's are directly orchestrating events? It's possible but you don't need to go that far. Look at the Syrian rebels. I'm sure statements of support from the West and just the possible potential of help inspired the rebels. And Obama pulled the rug from under them when? When the risks rose for the US.
 
It seems that the price that Obama says that Russia will pay is now taking shape. Its all in the planning phase now, we will see what comes out of it.



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The US and EU know to hit Russia economically where it hurts at minimal cost and probably with profit. This would also contribute to myriad negative domino effects for Russia socially and politically. The military option is not necessarily the best option, or even a good option, even if that's the option the other side pursues.
 

cn_habs

Junior Member
One thing that could stop Russia is the economy. The rouble has fallen to an all-time low against the dollar and they've had to significantly jack up interest rates to try to stop it falling further. The Russian stock market also fell by 11+%. If things get worse, Putin's rich backers may push him to end the confrontation and ordinary people might get annoyed too if the wider economy is affected.



It isn't suspicious in the slightest. They knew what was happening and jumped ship - like rats. A successful politician is one who knows when to change position.



According to the Russian government - the same government that tried to deny its forces were on the ground.

What may have happened is that the Russian commander issued an ultimatum using what he thought was discretion given to him in his orders, which the Kremlin hadn't anticipated and so overruled.

Most of Western Europe depends on Russian natural gas and millions in Ukraine would freeze to death if Russians were to cut off their heating. Putin knows that the EU won't do anything serious besides empty threats.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Well stated sir.

And AMEN to 110% of every bit of that.

Sad thing is...an unbelievabley marvelous opportunity to have the vast majority of the world as friends was squandered after the victory in the cold war...and it was done by the very career politicians and a plebeians you describe in your statement.

Thank you Jeff. It means a lot to me hearing that from you. Things where more clear cut back then and there was less ambeguity, there was no spying of your allies (not as much) and more cooperation with friendly and allied nations. Some times I feel that the world has taken a turn into the surreal.
 

SampanViking

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No doubt now that the Ukrainian rumours of an ultimatum was just disinformation.

Time then for a quick summary.

Putin has taken control of the Crimea with a friendly local government and done so without the need to fire a single shot.

The Russian Army has completed its training exercise and although returning to base is doubtless going to remain at a high state of readiness, in case they should be called upon to act.
Putin has the political authorisation from the Duma to send the Russian Army into the Ukraine at any time from now, until such time that the Russian government consider the Ukraine situation normalised.
For the time being, Russia will continue its operations in the Crimea based on the three pillars of R2P, the invitation of the Autonomous Crimean Government and the personal request of Deposed President Yanukovych.
R2P and Yanukovych also give Putin the option to send troops to other areas of the Ukraine if he gives the order.

The Ukraine has been forced to fully mobilise, which is an expensive option and a state that will be difficult to maintain for any prolonged period of time. The Economy of Ukraine continues to tank and; despite fine talk, no concrete rescue package has yet been announced.
The loyalty of Ukraine's military remains in doubt, with a high risk of either defection, desertion or surrender in the event of real fighting breaking out.

We also now see that the West is in actual disarray in how to respond to Putin, with tangible rifts between the US and Europe. Nobody is prepared to commit to military action against Russia and Europe has no intention of mounting any form of meaningful economic or trade sanctions against Russia.

This means that the organisation the the Ukraine is so keen to join does not reciprocate the enthusiasm and is not prepared to lend any meaningful support.

This is the situation that Putin will now be exploiting when pressuring Ukraine's political and military elite to join his cause.
 

delft

Brigadier
The US and EU know to hit Russia economically where it hurts at minimal cost and probably with profit. This would also contribute to myriad negative domino effects for Russia socially and politically. The military option is not necessarily the best option, or even a good option, even if that's the option the other side pursues.
This article in The Daily Telegraph says you're wrong:
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Vladimir Putin will get away with it again – sanctions would harm us more than them
Vladimir Putin is reputed to have once said that Russia no longer needs nukes; oil and gas make a far better weapon

By Jeremy Warner
8:17PM GMT 03 Mar 2014

"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
This was said by Winston Churchill in the opening stages of the Second World War, yet it remains to this day a remark that should instruct all analysis of Russian foreign policy.
Russia’s effective annexation of Crimea shouldn’t have come as a surprise to anyone with their finger on the pulse of Vladimir Putin’s Russia, which is perhaps why the reaction of Western financial markets has so far been relatively muted for what is said to be the “worst crisis in Europe in the 21st century” – a bit of a tumble in stock markets, a firming up of commodity prices and some limited evidence of flight to safety.
Even the hit taken to the Russian stock market and the ruble is not yet as bad as occurred in similar circumstances when Russia moved into Georgia.
If this is what William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, says it is, with a new Cold War or worse looming, you’d expect a somewhat more panicked reaction. But actually all we’ve seen so far is a smallish precautionary adjustment.
This is not just because Russia’s military response to the Ukrainian crisis has by most accounts been under preparation for some time, and therefore been entirely predictable for those with the right intelligence, but also because it conforms entirely to character and recent precedent. Mr Putin basically knows that as things stand, the West cannot and will not do much about it. Ukraine is not a member of Nato, and indeed cannot apply to join as long as there is an ongoing dispute. By occupying Crimea, Mr Putin has stymied Ukraine’s drift westward.
Chatham House’s Keir Giles warned immediately after the Georgian invasion that Russia doesn’t play by the same rules as the West; it would happen again and again, he predicted, and he’s been proved right.
Mr Putin’s grand ambition is to reassemble as much of the former Soviet empire as he can get away with, together with much of its military might. In the process he’s more than happy to ride roughshod over international law and accepted modern standards of international co-operation. It is small wonder that parallels are already being drawn with Nazi Germany’s invasion of Sudetenland, exaggerated though they might seem. First Crimea, then Eastern Ukraine; who knows where Russia’s ambitions end? Even the streets of Mayfair may not be immune.
Jokes apart, Mr Putin got away with it when he seized Georgia’s Abkhazia and South Ossetia regions in 2008 and he calculates, almost certainly correctly, that he will get away with it again in Crimea. By the same token, President Barack Obama may have miscalculated badly in threatening some form of retaliation. This has succeeded only in further hardening already pretty much rock-solid Russian popular support for Mr Putin’s actions. What’s seen in the West as a disaster looks to Muscovites like a triumph. Mr Obama must now either go through with his threats, or, as he did with Syria, blink. Russia is banking on the US doing the latter, not just because it has form in such matters, but because it is quite hard to see what, in the way of meaningful sanctions, might be imposed.
Obtaining international consensus will be difficult to impossible. Already, Germany shows signs of breaking ranks, and that’s just over the threat to abandon the G8 summit in Sochi. If mere gestures can cause dissent, think what more potent, economic sanctions would do.
Some of the more fanciful suggestions can quickly be dismissed. For instance, even if Turkey could be prevailed upon to close the Dardanelles to Russian commercial and military shipping, it would be a breach of international treaties and is therefore a non-starter for those accusing Russia of something similar. Somehow or other, the moral high ground has to be retained.
Gaining international agreement for other forms of economic sanction would be equally difficult. Both in terms of trade and finance, Russia is now quite highly integrated with the West. For instance, nearly 10pc of Britain’s car exports are to Russia, and an even higher proportion of Germany’s. Move over China, Russia is, in fact, by far the largest and fastest growing of the UK’s emerging markets for exporters. This is one of the reasons why, up until now, David Cameron has been so keen to restore relations with Mr Putin’s Russia. It was meant to help rebalance the UK economy.
What is more, Germany, France and Italy obtain up to 30pc of their gas supplies from Russia, which in turn is even more highly dependent on Europe as a market for its exported oil and gas. Without these sources of income, Kremlin revenues would collapse. The economic pain imposed on both sides by Iranian-style sanctions would therefore be extreme.
Unlike Europe, however, Russia’s capacity for economic hardship is almost limitless, as has been repeatedly demonstrated throughout history. In any contest over pain thresholds, Russia would win hands down.
Alternatively, we could be more selective, and refuse rich Russians with obvious connections to the Kremlin their visas, or freeze their assets. Or we could ban transactions with Russian banks. In extremis, we could even confiscate Chelsea football club. You only have to take this line of argument to such a logical extreme to see how much of a non-starter it really is. Britain thrives on an “open economy” model. It would be shooting itself in the foot by sequestrating the Russians.
Besides, all long-term hope of taming the Russian bear relies ultimately on full integration into the global economy. To return to the trade and travel barriers of the Cold War would be a massive step backwards.
All this explains both why the West is largely impotent over Russian aggression, and why Western markets haven’t so far taken this emerging, geo-political threat more seriously.
Mr Putin is reputed to have once said that Russia no longer needs nukes; oil and gas make a far better weapon. America’s energy revolution has made this less true than it was, but the point still has a great deal of force in Europe. Abundant natural resources provide Mr Putin’s Russia with all the cover it needs to go waltzing around in its own backyard, doing more or less whatever it pleases.
As we all know, financial markets can be amoral places. I don’t mean this in the sense that they are filled with rogues and thieves, but only that concern for the rights and wrongs of any situation is not what drives them. Instead, capital allocation is determined only by clinical assessment of the supposed risks and rewards. At the moment, their calculation is that Mr Putin will not risk a sustained war with Ukraine by invading eastern Ukraine, and that when push comes to shove, the US will do very little about Russian occupation of Crimea.
I may well be eating my words in a few weeks – developing events have a nasty habit of doing that to you – but in all probability Mr Putin will get away with it again, and Crimea will come to be seen as just another bump in the road. In any case, this doesn’t yet look like the occasion for World War Three.
In the meantime, there are more potent threats to the health of financial markets – the growing Chinese slowdown, and the return of mass leverage to US equity markets, to name but two.

Btw Putin is acting much more prudently than Obama in his war against Libya that let to the destruction of that country. That episode has seriously damaged Obama's moral standing in the World.
 
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