2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I read the article, not quite sure exactly what they are trying to prove?
All I think it does prove is that for the first time, the Western Propaganda machine has gone up against an opponent that has a reply and it has not come off well from the encounter.

I would posit that the strength of the opposing arguments have a lot to do with it, but there is also a huge trust deficit, certainly in the UK, built up by twenty years of being somewhat "economical with the truth".

On top of that, so much of the Propaganda that is put out over here is so poor, that to be asked to swallow it, is a grade A insult to the Intelligence and Insulting somebodies intelligence; repeatedly, is not the way to win hearts and minds.

I would call that being the media going insane since they do it too and don't notice it. That's why they call the media the fourth branch of government because of how much power they hold in swaying the public to believe one thing or another. Why did the media hate the emergence of the internet? Not because it took away their audience and killed newspapers. It's because the media no longer is the only one that controls the flow of information. They no longer get to decide what the public knows or doesn't know.
 

LesAdieux

Junior Member
Putin harbors the dream of reconstruct Russia, his plan is to build the Eurasia, and Ukraine is a crucial part of it, losing Ukraine is a big blow to him. the west knows that without the industrial heartland and the bread basket of Ukraine, Russia is no more than a regional power, they have been working hard to pull Ukraine away, and Putin knows that.

by now it is fairly clear that neither the west nor Putin can get the whole Ukraine, the peaceful solution is referendum: those want to go west, go west; those want to go east, go east. the non-peaceful solution is to fight out.
 

delft

Brigadier
I found on the website of my favorite Dutch broadcaster BNR discussion by its foreign affairs commentator with two men, one the director of the Hague Center for Strategic Studies, which is a think tank of the Dutch government, the other a former member of parliament for the larger of the two government parties in The Netherlands. The director told during that discussion of discussions he had some time ago with not yet president Poroshenko. Poroshenko said then that the prominent presence of Western politicians on the Maidan square made the conflict an East-West conflict which would make it a much bigger problem for the next president. The director also said that Western countries exaggerate the direct influence of Putin on developments in Ukraine.
For those who read Dutch:
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where you also find a link to the discussion itself.
 

MwRYum

Major
I found on the website of my favorite Dutch broadcaster BNR discussion by its foreign affairs commentator with two men, one the director of the Hague Center for Strategic Studies, which is a think tank of the Dutch government, the other a former member of parliament for the larger of the two government parties in The Netherlands. The director told during that discussion of discussions he had some time ago with not yet president Poroshenko. Poroshenko said then that the prominent presence of Western politicians on the Maidan square made the conflict an East-West conflict which would make it a much bigger problem for the next president. The director also said that Western countries exaggerate the direct influence of Putin on developments in Ukraine.
For those who read Dutch:
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where you also find a link to the discussion itself.

The irony is, now he's that "next president"...
 
It's sad that Ukrainian civil war is getting more intense. With a new government elected, they could have at least tried to negotiate with the eastern parts instead of bombing and causing collateral damages.

Here is Youtube clip of Kiev's Su-25 firing rockets at Eastern Ukraine town of Lugansk's administration building

...

Here is the CCTV footage that captured the rocket explosion.
...

Comrade "texx1", I think you belong to the category described in here:
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But as I said http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/mem...-views-photos-videos-102-6796.html#post284480 I like Propaganda so let's get some:

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in the left panel some Anti-Fascist heheh boasting about the helicopter shot down in Slavyansk, Ukraine

now, Special for Russian Television Lovers
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Featuring
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and, sure, Slavyansk, Ukraine

and since we are at Sino-Defence Forum:
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showing the picture from China, 1989 below the ideology-driven text :)

yeah, you may tell me I made this LOL

By the way, I have six more pieces -- tell me if you're interested, but they're more disgusting
 

texx1

Junior Member
Comrade "texx1", I think you belong to the category described in here:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

But as I said http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/mem...-views-photos-videos-102-6796.html#post284480 I like Propaganda so let's get some:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

in the left panel some Anti-Fascist heheh boasting about the helicopter shot down in Slavyansk, Ukraine

now, Special for Russian Television Lovers
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Featuring
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and, sure, Slavyansk, Ukraine

and since we are at Sino-Defence Forum:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
showing the picture from China, 1989 below the ideology-driven text :)

yeah, you may tell me I made this LOL

By the way, I have six more pieces -- tell me if you're interested, but they're more disgusting

I posted those videos because I am horrified at the death and wounding of innocent civilians regardless of their nationality, whether they are Chinese, Russian, Ukrainians, Iraqis or Poles.

Any government that targets civilian areas with indiscriminate airpower deserves condemnation. Since this thread is about what's happening in Ukraine currently, the videos I posted are relevant. And I found Kiev's new government's conduct deplorable as demonstrated in the videos I posted.

I had hoped there would be less sufferings and tragedies in Ukraine after a new government was elected and there could be a negotiated peace between Kiev and Eastern Ukraine. After I saw these videos on Youtube, I was very disappointed and I believe my post 1517 also expressed my disappointment at the situation.

As for your accusation of me being a mindless and paid pro-Kremlin troll (judging from the guardian article you linked), I found this unwarranted attack to be highly offensive as you presumed to judge me just from my postings of publicly available videos and especially distasteful since sinodefense forum is a place where discussions can take place in a civil manner.

And your not-so-subtle attempt to bait me with a photo of 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown without knowing my full background and further taunt me with providing more photos of the same is the most disgusting conduct I have ever experienced from a fellow member of this forum.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member

>>>>>>>>>> MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS <<<<<<<<<<

Guys, I know this thread is easy for emotions to get the upper hand. We have closed it before because of this.

Jura, texx1 posted videos that, as far as I could see, simply showed videos of what happened.

Not a lot of context...but I could not call them propaganda in the least. Knock off calling people propagandists based on such things. Consider this a warning.

Texx1, there is a civil war going on in Ukraine where eastern provinces are trying to break away from their country. A lot of Ukrainian soldiers have been killed and the new leader is going to try and hold the country together. As sad as that may seem to you...it is his duty to try and do so if he can. Tragically, it is almost always the case that in war, the civilian populations usually suffer the most.

Both of you, READ THE RULES about attacking other members, about useless arguments, about name calling, and about politics. Leave all of that out of your discourse on this thread and stay on topic.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION



>>>>>>>> END MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS <<<<<<<<
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
fFohZpO.jpg

Pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine have received support in recent weeks from people looking and speaking as though they come from Russia's Caucasian region. The government in Kiev has been unable to dislodge the rebels thus far. (militant wearing Russian Marine shirt)
IcNuOmh.jpg

A pro-Russian militant gestures at a checkpoint in a village not far from Donetsk. After months of obfuscation, Russia's direct involvement in eastern Ukraine is becoming visible.
J1f0FpP.jpg

A woman holding up a heart in the colors of the Russian flag during a rally in support of the "Donetsk People's Republic" on Saturday.
ileHKIh.jpg

The Ukrainian military has proven itself to be poorly equipped for the fight against the separatists. This image shows a military helicopter attacking separatist positions at the Donetsk airport last week, but Kiev's army lacks sufficient helicopters, ammunition and organization.
KPumabK.jpg

A priest prays during a memorial service in Donetsk for those who have lost their lives in the ongoing fight between the Kiev government and pro-Russian separatists.
mhNURp8.jpg

Dozens of people were killed in fighting last week in and near Donetsk. Many of those who lost their lives were Russians. They were sent home in coffins late last week.


I will now get back to bottling my Malbec

The Fight for Ukraine's East Gets Bloodier
Der Spiegel - The man with the full, black beard looks satisfied, sitting on his wooden chair. He is wearing a white-striped baseball cap and his Kalashnikov sits on the table beside him. Fighters refer to him respectfully as "Komandir." His casual hand signals determine who is allowed into the headquarters of the regional administration of Donetsk and who is not. In response to questions, the Komandir answers in Russian, with a strong Caucasian accent.

Is he the boss here? "Yes, apparently." But he's not from here? "As you can see." Then, his mobile phone rings and he speaks in a Caucasian language. Is it Chechen? "Why do you want to know, my friend?"

After months of obfuscation, Russia's direct involvement in eastern Ukraine is becoming visible. And last week, it became clearer than ever that Russian and Chechen mercenaries are supporting the separatists in Donetsk, fighting side-by-side with Ukrainians against troops sent by Kiev. At first, the presence of Russian fighters was but a rumor, but then, last Thursday, a column of vehicles carrying 34 coffins draped with red cloth left Donetsk heading for the border. Two-thirds of the some 50 rebels who died in heavy fighting 10 days ago were Russian citizens.

Some of the fighters in Donetsk openly told journalists that they came "on the orders of Kadyrov." The Chechen President Ramzan Kadyrov would only say on his Instagram page: "If any Chechen has been seen in the conflict zone, that's his personal business."

At the beginning of last week, it seemed as though the troops from Kiev, after weeks of hesitation, might finally be gaining the upper hand. The army was able to quickly regain control of the Donetsk airport, which had been occupied by the separatists. But the eastern flank remained open: On the drive from the Russian border to Donetsk, not a single Ukrainian soldier could be seen; at the edge of the city were fighters from the separatist battalion called Vostok, or East, their Kalashnikovs at the ready.

Serious Territorial Conflict
The battalion is now the leading power in Donetsk. It may only consist of a few hundred fighters, but they are armed with anti-tank guns, machine guns and anti-aircraft weaponry. And what began in April as the occupation of the regional administration building has since become a serious territorial conflict.

This week has seen heavy fighting in eastern Ukraine as Kiev launched an offensive against pro-Russian rebels in the area of Sloviansk, north of Donetsk, on Tuesday morning. The move followed an attack on rebel positions in Luhansk, located near the Russian border, on Monday. There were reports of several casualties on both sides.
"What is happening in the east is a repeat of the October Revolution," Yuri Lutsenko, an advisor to Ukrainian president-elect Petro Poroshenko, says in Kiev, 600 kilometers (373 miles) away. "At the beginning, the barricades were manned by adventurers, criminals and people from the lumpenproletariat who had no work. Just like in Petrograd in 1917. At the beginning, Viktor Yanukovych paid every fighter $400 per day, just as the German generals once paid money to Lenin's people. But now, there are mercenaries and Russian weapons."

Lutsenko, 49, was a pioneer of the Orange Revolution. Under Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, he twice headed up the Interior Ministry. But after Yanukovych came to power, Lutsenko was locked up for "abuse of office," only to be freed in April 2013 following European pressure. Now, he is working for Poroshenko, who will enter office at the end of this week. It is thought that Lutsenko will be tapped to head Ukraine's National Security Council and he is to help develop Poroshenko's Solidarity Party, which had played but a minimal role in Ukrainian politics prior to the May 25 election, into a solid power base.

Until then, though, he is working from the offices of the think tank he founded in the Kiev district of Podil. On the wall hangs an oil painting called "Pershy," The First. It shows an exhausted Ukrainian with his eyes closed as though he is trying to gather what remains of his strength. For Lutsenko, it is symbolic of the Maidan demonstrations, which led to the overthrow of Yanukovych in February.

'A European War'
"Keep a close eye on what is now happening in the east," Lutsenko says. "The separatists have long since ceased calling for federalism or for an improved status of the Russian language. They want to divide the wealth of the oligarchs among themselves, in this case, that of billionaire Rinat Akhmetov." He grabs a piece of paper and draws the outlines of Russia and Ukraine. "Putin doesn't want the Donbass region. He has other goals. First, he wants to sow anarchy in the region because it is extremely important for our economy and without it, the Ukrainians will never get back on their feet," Lutsenko says. "And secondly, he wants the separatists to gain so much independence that they will be able to veto any decision coming from Kiev. That would paralyze the state and would mean it was de facto governed from Moscow."
Lutsenko leans back, takes a deep breath, and says: "We have no choice. If we abandon Donetsk, Putin will soon be in Odessa. He is in the process of establishing a cordon sanitaire around Russia. And Ukraine is now, just as Poland once was, a buffer to Europe. It is not a local war, it is a European war."

And yet, despite the use of artillery and air strikes, Kiev's military does not appear to be able to regain control of the separatist regions. According to Lutsenko, some 12,000 pro-Russian militants are now fighting against Kiev government forces in the area of Donetsk with an additional 5,000 in the Luhansk region. And these men are better organized and better armed than the army, secret service and police. Just on Thursday of last week, the rebels managed to shoot down a National Guard transport helicopter, killing at least 12.

The army has no money and no fuel, says Lutsenko, adding that it hardly even exists as a fighting force. They need helicopters for the fight against the separatists, but the generals sold most of them to Africa. The few Russian helicopters that they still possess are poorly armed and can be shot down like balloons, he says. "We don't even have any more stun grenades to move against fighters in the city -- we can't go into Sloviansk with tanks." Poland, he adds, has at least sent over a supply of grenades. The Ukrainian National Guard on Wednesday said that it had abandoned a fight in Luhansk after running out of ammunition following a 10-hour battle with pro-Russian militants.

The May 25 vote did, however, bring some change: Petro Poroshenko was elected to the presidency with a surprisingly strong result of 54.7 percent, a strong mandate. Even his rival Tymoshenko backed down. She had planned to send 50,000 followers onto the streets in order to contest the results, but with a gap of 42 percentage points between her result and his, accusing him of electoral fraud seemed far-fetched.

Huge Tasks
In addition, the election result also disproved Moscow's claim that the country is hopelessly divided. Even in regions such as Odessa or Zaporizhia, places where residents tend to be pro-Russian, 40 percent of the vote went to Poroshenko.
But the tasks facing the new president are immense. There is no functioning police force, no tax authority, no effective border control and no judiciary to speak of. The natural gas ultimatum issued by Russia has expired, though Russian state-owned gas company Gazprom on Monday allowed Kiev six more days in ongoing negotiations in Berlin. And Maidan is to be cleared and parliament dissolved. On Wednesday, the president-elect met with US President Barack Obama in Warsaw and plans to fly to D-Day commemoration events in Normandy on Friday. His inauguration is scheduled for Saturday. And then he is planning on flying to the Donetsk region, where the military operation is underway.

"Poroshenko wants to lead them more effectively," says his advisor Lutsenko. "He wants to integrate the National Guard, the secret service and the army into a single chain of command." The president is also hoping for weapons, fuel and cheap food from the Americans, calling it a new "lend-lease act" in reference to the aid US President Franklin D. Roosevelt's provided to allies in World War II.

But it will be awhile before any such plan takes shape, which is why Poroshenko is currently leaning on Rinat Akhmetov, who employs some 300,000 people, most of them in eastern Ukraine. The oligarch has already said his workers would establish an unarmed civic defense force, but Akhmetov remains in Kiev and is wary of returning to Donetsk.

No Future
There, the power is lying on the street, as a Russian adage would have it, and the "Donetsk People's Republic" is doing what they can to harness that power. The 11-floor headquarters of the regional administration, which had become a shelter for both criminals and the homeless since its occupation, was "cleaned up" by the Vostok militia last Thursday, as self-proclaimed "premier" Alexander Borodai put it. On the same day, bulldozers cleared away the barricades in front of the structure. The time of chaotic revolution has passed, Borodai says. "As of today, this is the official government seat of the Donetsk People's Republic."

Most of the shops in the city center remained closed in the days following the battle for the airport, with much of the population shocked by the violence. The referendum held in May sent a clear message to the "fascist junta in Kiev," at least according to Russian propaganda. But now, a war is being fought in their city.

People who are opposed to their hometown's transformation into an independent people's republic are only willing to speak in private, "just like in Soviet times," says Alexander, a 30-year-old electrician. A few days previous, he saw a truck filled with "bearded Caucasians" driving through his city, he says. "Why is this riffraff here," he wonders? A father of two children, Alexander says he doesn't see a future for his family in the "Donetsk People's Republic."
 

delft

Brigadier
Not from a reliable source, but ...
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14 June 2014 Last updated at 04:40 GMT

Ukraine crisis: Military plane shot down in Luhansk

Several Ukrainian troops have been killed after pro-Russian rebels shot down a military plane, officials say.

Ukraine's defence ministry said the Il-76 transport plane crashed after coming under heavy anti-aircraft fire over the eastern city of Luhansk.

It said several people had died but did not give a figure. As many as 49 are thought to have been on board.

The plane was carrying troops and military equipment and was about to land at the city's airport.
 
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