2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

At least thirty and maybe as many as forty Pro Federalists have been killed as Pro Unity (Right Sector) protesters set fire to a Government building in Odessa that was being occupied.




This could be the game changer as these were just protesters and not militia. There killing cannot be anything other than mass murder. If Kiev does not know crack down on the Right Sector for the killings, the proverbial will definitely hit the fan.

SampanViking said:

At least thirty and maybe as many as forty Pro Federalists have been killed as Pro Unity (Right Sector) protesters set fire to a Government building in Odessa that was being occupied.

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Yeah, because they found out themselves in the building for Saturday fun or they were put there asleep by 'Kiev regime' for provocation...

They miscalculated pro-Ukrainian public sentiment of Odessa people who started throwing Molotov coctails at the building... But surely a sad moment for Ukraine.

A.Man said:

I hope Obama is not going to make Ukraine like a Giant Lebanon.

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Ukrainians themselves are going to make Ukraine like a giant Lebanon. If Ukrainians themselves are united no external power can force them into civil war. If you want to blame outside powers you should include Russia, Poland, Germany, France, and the UK besides from the US.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Neither Russia nor NAto as they stand would Fair well in a conflict. It's to Equal which is why neither actually wants to fight. the battles would instead be a proxy war with both sides backing sides.

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That is why the first mover advantage is so critical in this situation, just as it was in all past 'hot' conflicts of the Cold War.

Vietnam, Afghanistan, one could even argue Korea.

The two superpowers knows that to engage in direct military combat against each other openly is to court Armageddon. That is why when either superpower takes the field directly, the other has little choice but to sit out and limit themselves to fighting through proxies.

Before, neither the US or Russia had pretext or the political will to go into Ukraine directly, well not openly at least. This new Kiev offensive threatens to overturn that delicate balance by giving Russia both a reason and a pretext to send in the tanks.

Once Russian tanks cross the boarder, that's the end of any possible direct NATO or US involvement, because as I previous pointed out, the risk of escalation is too great and the consequences too grave to risk over Ukraine.

In a way, Putin has really put the new Kiev regime in an impossible position since they are damned no matter if they do anything or nothing.

But the root cause of all this really is the way the current Kiev regime came to power itself. The Pro-Russians are using pretty much the exact same tactics as the Kiev lot, only with far fewer crippled and killed cops thus far. The Kiev regime and its backers opened that particular Pandora's box, and now they are suffering the 'blowback', as the CIA likes to call it.

solarz said:

First, where did I express the opinion that I found people dying funny? Please do not twist my words, I specifically said that the idea that the West can economically isolate Russia to be laughable.

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Who's twisting words Solarz?

I never said you indicated that people dying was funny. In response to your specific comment about the west isolating Russia being hilarious, I said, "there is nothing hilarious about this at all." That means the entire situation is exremely serious and IMHO, none of it is hilarious or laughing matter at all...precisely because it is all leading to people being killed.

There is a huge difference between what I said, and how you described it. Look a little closer at is said before you knee jerk and level such accusations.

solarz said:

Second, while every nation on Earth has the potential to be economically vulnerable.

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Of course they do...but I was speaking specifically about Russia in this situation. And Russia is vulnerable. As I said, the question is whether the western nations have the stomach to do what would be necessary to exploit that vulnerability.

solarz said:

Finally, as I pointed out, there will be no war between Russia and NATO, because NATO does not stand a chance fighting Russia on its doorsteps.

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Actually, that is demonstrably not true.

Urkaine is on NATO's doorstep just as it is on Russia's. The combined weight of the military power of all of NATO is several times that of Russia, as are their economies.

But, as I stated, I personally believe as well that there will not be war. At least I pray that that is so. But not because NATO is incabale of waging it if it had to. It most certainly is capable if it had to. IMHO, it will be because neither sides really wants war.

I do not believe Putin wants a general war with NATO any more than NATO wants one with him. Putin will take what he thinks he can acquire relatively easily IMHO.

Crimea was certainly available like that. He now has to determine if the other southeastern provinces fall into that same category...or if the sizeable buildup of NATO air power in Poland, plus Ukraines demonstrated willingness to now fight for those provinces is something that might deter him from going ahead.

While all of this has been going on, the United states and its NATO allies, which now include Poland, the Baltic States, and most of Eastern Europe (Hungary, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, etc.) have been steadily building up air forces in Poland, which borders the Urkaine on Poland's east.

This includes numerous very modern and potent fighter and strike aircraft and modern refueling tankers and aireborne radar and command and control aircraft.

The US has F-15C Eagles and F-16 Falcons in Poland. The UK has deployed Eurofighter Typhoons there. Canada has sent in F-18 Hornets, and France has deployed its very capable Rafael fighters. Poland is adding its own F-16 fighters and Mig-29 fighter/bombers. Large refueling tankers and E-2 Sentry AWACS aircraft from NATO are also on station.


Those are all pictures of NATO aircraft flying over or arriving in Poland in the last two weeks. Those aircraft are now patroling along Polands eastern frontier, and over the Baltic nations as a show of force to Russia.

Putin will have to determine if that show of force is really simply a buffer against further actions by Russia outside of the Ukraine, or if NATO would consider using it to assist Ukraine if he crosses that frontier.

That is the calculus that now exists.

solarz said:

That said, you are right in that Putin does not want a fight with NATO either, at least, not if he can avoid it. If NATO were to send ground troops into western Ukraine, then Putin will almost certainly not attempt any advance into western Ukraine. However, should NATO troops enter Ukraine, it would be an immediate green light for Russian troops to pour into eastern Ukraine, which is something the Kiev regime does not want at this point.

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We agree on this.

Korea was about the only confirmed time when Russian and US forces actually fought, Additionally take a second look at your list. Afghanistan and Vietnam were insurgencies.
And the First mover's in two of your examples. lost, the North Korean's did not unify Korea they were forced back to the same boarder as before.
Russia tucked it's tail between it's legs having been bleed out in the stan.
Vietnam was a all around loss for every one involved.

I have been documenting the entire 2014 Ukraine Crisis pictorally and verbally since it began. For anyone interested, you can read my documentation and analysis:






It's not a perfect analysis by any stretch, but I do believe it gives a relatively impartial observation of the events to date.

Jeff Head said:

Who's twisting words Solarz?

I never said you indicated that people dying was funny. In response to your specific comment about the west isolating Russia being hilarious, I said, "there is nothing hilarious about this at all." That means the entire situation is exremely serious and IMHO, none of it is hilarious or laughing matter at all...precisely because it is all leading to people being killed.

There is a huge difference between what I said, and how you described it. Look a little closer at is said before you knee jerk and level such accusations.

Of course they do...but I was speaking specifically about Russia in this situation. And Russia is vulnerable. As I said, the question is whether the western nations have the stomach to do what would be necessary to exploit that vulnerability.

Actually, that is demonstrably not true.

Urkaine is on NATO's doorstep just as it is on Russia's. The combined weight of the military power of all of NATO is several times that of Russia, as are their economies.

But, as I stated, I personally believe as well that there will not be war. At least I pray that that is so. But not because NATO is incabale of waging it if it had to. It most certainly is capable if it had to. IMHO, it will be because neither sides really wants war.

I do not believe Putin wants a general war with NATO any more than NATO wants one with him. Putin will take what he thinks he can acquire relatively easily IMHO.

Crimea was certainly available like that. He now has to determine if the other southeastern provinces fall into that same category...or if the sizeable buildup of NATO air power in Poland, plus Ukraines demonstrated willingness to now fight for those provinces is something that might deter him from going ahead.

While all of this has been going on, the United states and its NATO allies, which now include Poland, the Baltic States, and most of Eastern Europe (Hungary, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, etc.) have been steadily building up air forces in Poland, which borders the Urkaine on Poland's east.

This includes numerous very modern and potent fighter and strike aircraft and modern refueling tankers and aireborne radar and command and control aircraft.

The US has F-15C Eagles and F-16 Falcons in Poland. The UK has deployed Eurofighter Typhoons there. Canada has sent in F-18 Hornets, and France has deployed its very capable Rafael fighters. Poland is adding its own F-16 fighters and Mig-29 fighter/bombers. Large refueling tankers and E-2 Sentry AWACS aircraft from NATO are also on station.

​

Those are all pictures of NATO aircraft flying over or arriving in Poland in the last two weeks. Those aircraft are now patroling along Polands eastern frontier, and over the Baltic nations as a show of force to Russia.

Putin will have to determine if that show of force is really simply a buffer against further actions by Russia outside of the Ukraine, or if NATO would consider using it to assist Ukraine if he crosses that frontier.

That is the calculus that now exists.

We agree on this.

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Those NATO forces will not be push-overs, that much Airpower will make Putin stop and think, as well he should, and any aggression by Russia in response to those aircraft will bring a response, of that you should have no doubt. In fact now that US aircraft are mixed into the NATO force, Obama will not have to act alone, which he is loath to do, but he is a street organizer, and he's not nearly so concerned once he is surrounded by a "coalition", that will likely not be apparent to the bad guys, until they mess up.

Those are just a few examples off the top of my head, and if you want to be awkward and get into a pointless pissing contest over an issue that isn't even the point I was trying to make, you sure picked a poor example to make your stand as its not like the Americans enjoyed much more success than the Russians in Afghanistan.

The outcomes of those conflicts does not impact on my main point, which is that when one superpower directly engages in military operations in a country, the other has never openly engaged themselves. Even in Korea, those Soviet pilots were flying under Korean or Chinese flags, and never flew beyond friendly lines in case they were shot down and captured.

If you want to nit pick, you can take your pick between Grenada, Gulf War I, Kosovo or Georgia to get examples where a superpower has engaged in military operations and enjoyed overwhelming success. And to be frank Ukraine as it stands is far more like the latter group than the first group I originally listed.

Russian 'tourists' who fled burning building were 'welcomed' by the Odessa people this way