2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

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thunderchief

Senior Member
3. The current Ukrainian government is a provisional government only and will stand down once the May election has been held.

Current government in Kiev could not be even provisional, because to form provisional government you need at least some kind of consensus from all major parties. And yet, it did much more then provisional governments do, including signing treaties with EU, changing laws and constitution etc ...

Once you start down the path of lawlessness everything is possible . There are unconfirmed reports that Russian Air Force now operates in Ukrainian air space . We shall see. If the war happens most of the blame will lay on those who supported ousting of Yanukovich with force, instead of early elections .
 
I guess some SDF members who are in Europe are following the events in Slavyansk on-line (as I've been doing for the last half of hour) ... anyway it might of interest that some Polish server has its own journalist on the spot and according to him, the Ukrainian forces are very careful not to cause any collateral damage, so careful they didn't push into the town after they had taken a checkpoint ... now the activists are back at that checkpoint; the picture this journalist just sent:
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Also some Czech server has a reporter in Slavyanks; he's in "the downtown" and estimates the number of armed activists at ... 600.

Now even gazeta.ru reported a movement of numerous military vehicles toward the Ukrainian border ...

I'm not saying these reports are true or false, just repeat them here.
 
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Mr T

Senior Member
Current government in Kiev could not be even provisional, because to form provisional government you need at least some kind of consensus from all major parties.

The government got 371 votes in the Rada - that's more than 80% of the MPs voting for it and a very significant show of support. I suppose you think that's insufficient?

And yet, it did much more then provisional governments do, including signing treaties with EU, changing laws and constitution etc

The government has not passed any laws - the Rada has done that and similarly returned the Constitution to its state after the 2004 amendments (the Supreme Court's decision in 2010 to strike down the changes was highly controversial). You cannot blame the current government for the constitution changes given it was appointed after the Rada had voted on it.

As for signing the EU agreement, that can be undone by the next government if they don't like it.

If the war happens most of the blame will lay on those who supported ousting of Yanukovich with force

He used force against civilians and then ran from Ukraine when he realised he was going to be impeached and then go to jail for having people shot. His own party disowned him and he didn't trust the Army or police - that shows how big a hole he had dug himself. Even Putin is not treating him as the President.
 
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SampanViking

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Kiev has restarted its "Anti Terrorist" Operations again today and there is significant claim and counter claim as to events on the ground. Way too much fog to warrant any attempt at analysis, but will probably boil down to whether Kiev has been able to field units less open to question about the nature of the operation.
RT is however breaking news that Russia is launching Military Drills on the border in response.

Of rather more interest though is the apparent condensing of the narrative coming from Moscow.

In interview earlier today, Mr Putin has described the Coup Installed Government in Kiev as a "Junta" if they have ordered the army to attack Ukrainian citizens. He further said that their would be consequences from Russia "against those responsible". This is interesting as yesterday FM Lavrov, made it clear that those "Running the Show" i.e. responsible were the United States.

More and more now I am convinced that the "Personnel" vendetta between Moscow and Washington is trumping strict Geopolitics and that this will significantly effect what the end game is and how it plays out.

Regarding the Coup appointed Government in Kiev, the line being taken by Moscow against them, is now quite clear. Not only is this a Government that lacks credibility, that is unable to control large portions of its own military or rein in its far right supporters, but it is also nothing more than a puppet for its oversees masters in Washington, whose interests (attested by the launching of damaging military operations whenever senior US officials fly in) are the priority over those of the ordinary citizens of Ukraine.

Against the US, Moscow will now point to two agreements; the February 20th and the April 17th, which Moscow will accuse Washington of negotiating in bad faith. Again, it will argue that when senior US officials came to Kiev, that rather than put pressure on Yats and Co to disarm the Far Right and begin de-escalation, that instead they "encouraged" further escalation and military attacks on Pro Federalist Ukrainians.

The battle here is still for the hearts and minds of ordinary Ukrainians, something which I suspect is rather more volatile than the entrenched media of both sides are currently giving credence too.

There are still a large hand of cards to play before the end, but clearly Putin is looking to embarrass Washington by creating the circumstances in which the Far Right of the Maidan movement will seek to take control and establish yet another new government in Kiev that would be an outrage to all Western values and seriously undermine US/EU relations; possibly NATO itself, if the US refused to disown it.

The final solution for Russia is of course Military Intervention. If or when this card is played will depend on many factors, not least of which will be nature and scale of sanctions put in place by Washington over the coming days. Place to many and too hard, and Moscow will determine that it has nothing left to lose and simply go ahead.

If Russia does cross the border, it will not simply be to "see" the other side and occupy those regions where support is strongest. The cost of this action will simply be too high for a limited operation. Instead it will "raise" significantly and send the tanks rolling to Kiev and all the way to the Western border beyond. As previously stated on this thread "hung for taking a sheep as for a lamb".
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
The government got 371 votes in the Rada

Current parliament is illegal - some members were not allowed to attend sessions, some were pressured to attend and to vote etc... Decision to oust Yanukovich was illegal by Ukrainian constitution because proper procedure was not followed . Decision to change constitution was also illegal (it didn't get 3/4 of necessary votes) .Also, Turchinov was elected as acting president by parliament instead by popular vote.

If you have violent change of government and want to restore some kind of legality and legitimacy, then you need elections an all levels, and you need provisional caretaker government to run daily business but not to make some fateful decisions. Instead of calming things down, current lot in Kiev continued with revolutionary ways and then we got what we got .
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Current parliament is illegal

Rubbish. The Rada cannot be illegal, it was directly elected a few years ago.

some members were not allowed to attend sessions, some were pressured to attend and to vote etc...

Who, when, how and what's your evidence? Specifics please, not copy-and-pasting Russia Today propaganda. I understand only around 20 MPs were not present for the vote, so it wouldn't have made a difference even if they had been there and had all voted against.

Decision to oust Yanukovich was illegal by Ukrainian constitution because proper procedure was not followed

He was impeached by a large majority of MPs. If he's unhappy with the procedure, he has the right to petition the Supreme Court. But the fact he also fled the country made it impossible for the country to run without an acting president. Even if the correct procedure was not followed precisely, someone had to be voted in. One could argue he had abandoned his job and therefore didn't even have to be impeached.

Decision to change constitution was also illegal (it didn't get 3/4 of necessary votes)

The Rada was overturning the Supreme Court's decision, so arguably it wasn't amending the Constitution. It's also more democratic as it limits the President's powers. So if anyone is concerned about the Ukrainian government running wild, they should be in favour of that change.

Again, the Supreme Court can resolve that issue if anyone is unhappy with the vote.

Also, Turchinov was elected as acting president by parliament instead by popular vote.

You can't elect an acting president by popular vote. What would be the point? You need an acting president appointed ASAP before the national elections take place. Otherwise you're suggest Ukraine should have had no President. Doesn't matter if you think Yanukovych was still the President, he wasn't there to do his job. Please confirm you're saying you wanted Ukraine to be without a President doing his job for 3 whole months.

then you need elections an all levels

As has been tirelessly pointed out on this thread, there will be an election next month. A new President will be elected, and he can nominate a new government. There is no need for an early election to the Rada because it is still functioning and I haven't seen any evidence yet that a large group of MPs have been permanently excluded.

not to make some fateful decisions

Decisions that are fully reversible.
 

Piotr

Banned Idiot
So according to US corporate media now protesters in the Ukraine are just "terrorists". Just 3 months ago protesters in Maidan were called "peaceful" and "democratic" by US corporate media. In fact Maidan protests were neither pecefull nor democratic:
[video=youtube;bfRtA-Cs_HQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfRtA-Cs_HQ[/video]
I hope youtube will not censor/delete this video as they've done with many others.
I hope solders in the Ukraine will not obey orders from illegitimate Maidan "government" to kill people in the Ukraine.
It's funny how illegitimate Maidan "government" is begging Berkut members to return:
Ukraine’s former Berkut riot policemen have reacted skeptically to the authorities’ invitation to be return to active duty two months after Berkut was officially dissolved by acting Interior Minister Arsen Avakov. After part of Berkut policemen moved to Russia, on Easter Ukraine’s Interior Ministry issued a statement urging former Berkut units and Maidan self-defense forces to unite "in the face of an external threat". The call comes against the backdrop of an ongoing trial of a group of Berkut officers on charges of their alleged involvement in shooting at Maidan protesters.
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Even some people in the US supports Russia and the Ukraine, so US corporate media are not as strong as they hope to be:
Russia is on God's side - Pat Buchanan
Analyzing Vladimir Putin’s speech on the day when Russia reunited with Crimea, Pat Buchanan made a conclusion that "Russia is on God's side. The West is Gomorrah." Pat Buchanan, Former Assistant to the President for Communications gave his assessment of Putin’s actions. According to him, Russia is "planting Russia's flag firmly on the side of traditional Christianity", standing firmly in its position against reproductive choice and LGBT rights. This, according to Buchanan is the evidence that God is on Putin's side in his showdown with the West.
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...

Decisions that are fully reversible.

Mr T, please tell us whether you would be so ferociously defending the current Ukrainian government if Janukovych was now acting president (since February 2014) and Turchynov had been previously elected (in February 2010 -- of course I know this couldn't have happened), but removed in the same way as Janukovych was. Yes or No?
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Mr T, please tell us whether you would be so ferociously defending the current Ukrainian government if Janukovych was now acting president (since February 2014) and Turchynov had been previously elected (in February 2010 -- of course I know this couldn't have happened), but removed in the same way as Janukovych was. Yes or No?

If:

a) he had done exactly as Yanukovych had done; and
b) Yanukovych had been appointed by the Rada as acting president only (i.e. not standing for election next month)

then yes I would be supporting the government.

Now is there any chance I could get a point-by-point response to my last two posts? I see quite a few people throwing around generic comments without actually responding to my points.
 

SampanViking

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The legitimacy of the new Rada, its impeachments and appointments were examined in detail much earlier in this thread. The conclusion was that there was too much ambiguity to see definitively one way or the other and only Constitutional Lawyers would be able to try and resolve the inconsistencies and ambiguities.

Unless anybody here can present the relevant qualifications to be able to do this, then this area of the discussion does not need re-examining.

Thank you
 
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