2009 Update to Jeff Head's PLAN pages

bladerunner

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Just changing the topic for a moment I was wondering if you could help me out hereI just want to get my facts right before I mention this in another thread. China/econimics Trade/US etc: Unless Im mistaken there is a Us powered Chinese frigate out there somewhere?.and whats happened to it. If so why cant they be prepared to renew the trade.? ..or is that never likely to happen again. Personally I dont see selling propulsion systems any worse than selling helicopters or the latest Boeing passenger plane with its latest technology in engines and flight management systems.
Are US propulsion systems superior to other systems that other countries are prepared to sell to China.
 
A

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
To date I'm only aware of 3 "cross platform" VLS systems, the US Mk.41 and later variants, the French Sylver A-43/50/70, and the Russian 3S14E, which is used for SSM and not SAM.

We're all familiar with the US Mk.41 system. The French Sylver VLS system comes in different lengths and can use Aster-15, Aster-30, VL-MICA, and possibly cruise missiles and VT-1 SAM in the future. There are rumors about VT-1 and CAMM quad-pack, but we'll see.

Giving this some thought, I think quad-packing shorter range SAM's doesn't make sense with systems like RAM. Why eat valuable space that can be utilized for longer-range (and bigger) missiles, when you can bolt couple RAM type launchers on deck?

ESSM kinda made sense because it's medium range (50+ km).
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
bladerunner said:
Just changing the topic for a moment I was wondering if you could help me out hereI just want to get my facts right before I mention this in another thread. China/econimics Trade/US etc: Unless Im mistaken there is a Us powered Chinese frigate out there somewhere?.and whats happened to it. If so why cant they be prepared to renew the trade.? ..or is that never likely to happen again. Personally I dont see selling propulsion systems any worse than selling helicopters or the latest Boeing passenger plane with its latest technology in engines and flight management systems.
Are US propulsion systems superior to other systems that other countries are prepared to sell to China.
Click to expand...
The first Type 052, Luhu Class, the 112 Harbin is powered by two GE gas turbines. It's the only one and the second changed over to Ukraine gas turbines.

Either the PLAN did not like the GE equipment, or, more likely due to US restrictions after they installed them on the DDG, they were unable to continue with GE on such orders. That's my guess.

Ever since then, on both the DDGs and FFGs the equipment has been mostly Chinese, Chinese license built, European and Ukraine.

Of course on the Sovs, the equipment has been the same as the Russian.
 
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Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
adeptitus said:
To date I'm only aware of 3 "cross platform" VLS systems, the US Mk.41 and later variants, the French Sylver A-43/50/70, and the Russian 3S14E, which is used for SSM and not SAM.

We're all familiar with the US Mk.41 system. The French Sylver VLS system comes in different lengths and can use Aster-15, Aster-30, VL-MICA, and possibly cruise missiles and VT-1 SAM in the future. There are rumors about VT-1 and CAMM quad-pack, but we'll see.

Giving this some thought, I think quad-packing shorter range SAM's doesn't make sense with systems like RAM. Why eat valuable space that can be utilized for longer-range (and bigger) missiles, when you can bolt couple RAM type launchers on deck?

ESSM kinda made sense because it's medium range (50+ km).
Click to expand...
Agreed, no cross designing the RAM...it is self contained and very effective as is and could be used on almost any vessel. The ESSM, which does have good range, is a natural and is being used that way.
 
M

Mu Shu Tortilla

New Member
bladerunner said:
Just changing the topic for a moment I was wondering if you could help me out hereI just want to get my facts right before I mention this in another thread. China/econimics Trade/US etc: Unless Im mistaken there is a Us powered Chinese frigate out there somewhere?.and whats happened to it. If so why cant they be prepared to renew the trade.? ..or is that never likely to happen again. Personally I dont see selling propulsion systems any worse than selling helicopters or the latest Boeing passenger plane with its latest technology in engines and flight management systems.
Are US propulsion systems superior to other systems that other countries are prepared to sell to China.
Click to expand...

Harbin has GE LM-2500's. Her sister uses Ukrainian gas turbines. The supply of LM-2500's was cut off after Tienamen Square.
The LM-2500 is a dead reliable power plant that is proven to last over ten thousand hours without an overhaul. It can generate over 25,000 shp each and will tolerate everything from good quality jet fuel to the least refined diesel, called RGO. They have been tested with Soybean oil successfully as well. It is a highly refined power plant.
You most likely won't see any more US technology willingly parted with for sale to China. There is a lot of heartburn with China in the DoD.
 
M

Mu Shu Tortilla

New Member
Jeff Head said:
Agreed, no cross designing the RAM...it is self contained and very effective as is and could be used on almost any vessel. The ESSM, which does have good range, is a natural and is being used that way.
Click to expand...

You are missing something with respect to RAM. It is an IR/RF homing missile. It has to acquire a target before launch. If you ever carefully watch a video of the RAM launch sequence, you see the front cover of the missile tube is blown off a second or two before the missile launches so the RF seeker can acquire. Can't do this with a VLS.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Mu Shu Tortilla said:
You are missing something with respect to RAM. It is an IR/RF homing missile. It has to acquire a target before launch. If you ever carefully watch a video of the RAM launch sequence, you see the front cover of the missile tube is blown off a second or two before the missile launches so the RF seeker can acquire. Can't do this with a VLS.
Click to expand...
Oh, I agree. That's just another very good reason you will not see a RAM ever launched from a MK-41 or any other VLS system.

It's already very, very effective, self contained, and easy to iinstall (easy is a relative term...but compared to VLS it applies) on other vessels without the need to try and cross fit or design it to any other system.

You're seeing them all over the place now, from the new LCS, to LPDs, to LHAs to Carriers, etc. and that is just in the US inventory. Their use will certainly further expand as needed. Heck, IMHO, they'd make a heck of a point defense system at fixed land installations as well.
 
M

Mu Shu Tortilla

New Member
Check out RAM Block 2. Four control surfaces vs two of current versions for greater maneuverability, and a significantly larger rocket motor for greater acceleration and range. New seeker too, but it still fits in the same launch tube as current RAM versions.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Mu Shu Tortilla said:
Harbin has GE LM-2500's. Her sister uses Ukrainian gas turbines. The supply of LM-2500's was cut off after Tienamen Square.
The LM-2500 is a dead reliable power plant that is proven to last over ten thousand hours without an overhaul. It can generate over 25,000 shp each and will tolerate everything from good quality jet fuel to the least refined diesel, called RGO. They have been tested with Soybean oil successfully as well. It is a highly refined power plant.
You most likely won't see any more US technology willingly parted with for sale to China. There is a lot of heartburn with China in the DoD.
Click to expand...

Well GE has a joint venture with Shenyang Liming---yup the company that now makes turbines for jets and ships that you read about in this forum---to make turbines for stationary power plants. Its called GE-Liming.
 
crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Jeff Head said:
The first Type 052, Luhu Class, the 112 Harbin is powered by two GE gas turbins. It's the only one and the second changed over to Ukraine gas turbines.

Either the PLAN did not like the GE equipment, or due to restrictions after they installed them on the DDG, they were unable to continue.

Ever since then, on both the DDGs and FFGs the equipment has been mostly Chinese, Chinese license built, European and Ukraine.

Of course on the Sovs, the equipment has been the same as the Russian.
Click to expand...

As a test subject, DDG 169 is reported to have one Ukrainian made turbine, and one Chinese made turbine operating side by side. Yup, that's the same ship doing the anti pirate patrols now in the Gulf of Aden.
 
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