09V/09VI (095/096) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[Hendrik_2000]

Here is the proof look how small is the manifold compare to a person
This is the drawing I am referring to in order to get the sense of generator dimension
The width is roughly 3 m and the length is 7m
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/plan-type-095-096-nuclear-submarine-thread.t8228/page-3

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Here is the calculation reposted again
BTW I found the formula to calculate the power requirement of bluff body with 10m Dia or Beam moving thru saltwater with speed of 28.5 mile/hr or 17 knot . Assuming no friction. Of course this is not right but just to get the idea of power requirement Type 93 or 95 supposed to have 11 m beam. It is definitely larger than 30 MW if you add the friction, 30 knot speed, power for utility, desalination,HVAC etc
So going back to original argument those genset are about the right size for nuclear submarine QED
Type: nuclear-powered attack submarine
Displacement: 7,000 tonnes (submerged)

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Length: 110 m

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Beam: 11 m

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Draft: 7.5 m

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Propulsion: Pressurized water nuclear reactor
Speed: 30

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[taxiya]

Here is the calculation reposted again
BTW I found the formula to calculate the power requirement of bluff body with 10m Dia or Beam moving thru saltwater with speed of 28.5 mile/hr or 17 knot . Assuming no friction. Of course this is not right but just to get the idea of power requirement Type 93 or 95 supposed to have 11 m beam. It is definitely larger than 30 MW if you add the friction, 30 knot speed, power for utility, desalination,HVAC etc
So going back to original argument those genset are about the right size for nuclear submarine QED
Type: nuclear-powered attack submarine
Displacement: 7,000 tonnes (submerged)

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Length: 110 m

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Beam: 11 m

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Draft: 7.5 m

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Propulsion: Pressurized water nuclear reactor
Speed: 30

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I think 20MW per turbo generator is too small for anything like 09III or 09V. LA class and Virginia class all have similar dimention (smaller diameter if we trust wiki which I have no idea how does it know). These two classes have 26MW and 30MW per shaft/turbine. For same sized 09III and 09V to reach similar speed, they must have power per shaft somewhere between 26 and 30 MW regardless electrical drive or mechanical drive (the efficiency difference is minimal).

The recent announced steam generator is 20MW class, even if we consider anything between 18 to 22 as 20MW, it is still too small. The article claimed it runs at 110% rating, if 20MW is the designated standard load, 110% only gives 22MW, far from needed minimum 26MW.

The problem is always the ambiguous wording of class, it can be designation of upper limit, lower limit or middle point. And Chinese publication has used all the three.

On the other hand, if the 20MW class is NOT to mean "anything above 20", it means it is not for 09III and 09V, then what it is aiming to be used?

[note]: by shaft I meant turbine shaft, not propeller shaft.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

This is not the finish product They just qualified it for certification process When they installed it in the submarine They will put it on the isolating raft The whole caboodle everything including the pump will be put on the raft You don't know what you are talking about here You are absolutely know nothing about submarine design !

This is small I put those huge 7 MW generator for comparison You can get sense of dimension by measuring it against the gas bottle You genius!
Based on 50 inch gas bottle the length of the genset is 5X50=250 inch =20feet or 7meter

Again, same power with required mass with different speeds:
500 RPM generator 480 tons
3000 RPM generator 80 tons
24000 RPM generator 10 tons.

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Power frequencies as high as 400 Hz are used in aircraft, spacecraft, submarines, server rooms for

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,

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military equipment, and hand-held machine tools. Such high frequencies cannot be economically transmitted long distances; the increased frequency greatly increases series impedance due to the inductance of transmission lines, making power transmission difficult. Consequently, 400 Hz power systems are usually confined to a building or vehicle.

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, for example, can be made smaller because the magnetic core can be much smaller for the same power level. Induction motors turn at a speed proportional to frequency, so a high frequency power supply allows more power to be obtained for the same motor volume and mass. Transformers and motors for 400 Hz are much smaller and lighter than at 50 or 60 Hz, which is an advantage in aircraft and ships. A United States military standard

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exists for aircraft use of 400 Hz power.

The generator visibly wider and longer than 2 meters, so it has 6.5 cubic meter volume 52 tons.
This should be a 50 HZ generator for 20 MW.

IT IS NOT FOR SUBMARINE.
It can be heard from 1000 kms,regardless of damping .

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A special generator was designed to create an output of 400 Hz. This allowed a motor which was the size of a watermelon to be replaced by one the size of a one-pound coffee can which could do the same work.

The ship would need frequency changer anyway, so the generator frequency doesn't really matter.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Again, same power with required mass with different speeds:
500 RPM generator 480 tons
3000 RPM generator 80 tons
24000 RPM generator 10 tons.


The generator visibly wider and longer than 2 meters, so it has 6.5 cubic meter volume 52 tons.
This should be a 50 HZ generator for 20 MW.

IT IS NOT FOR SUBMARINE.
It can be heard from 1000 kms,regardless of damping .



The ship would need frequency changer anyway, so the generator frequency doesn't really matter.

You are dense or what The generator shown in bare When in actual use they will put it on acoustic shroud that will enveloped the whole generator and turbine assembly
The whole thing will put on the raft that isolate any vibration using feed back loop control

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Vibration is not a function of generator frequency but of the generator speed Motor frequency has nothing to do with vibration I make a living doing vibration control so I know what I am talking about instead of you amateur with your mumbo jumbo frequency

There is always imperfection in machining moving part that will create imbalance because it rotate at high speed of 3600 rpm. Add to that imperfection in bearing and even minute run out will create vibration So your machining and fabrication must be top notch with high precision and super low tolerance But even that is not enough They make provision for that
So you design your supporting structure to be stiff and you can calculate those structure stiffness

I don't know what are you talking about frequency there is converter that will convert the out put of the generator to any frequency that you want using combination of rectifier and inverter You also can change the speed of the generator to suit that is why you have control valve on the Turbine genius!

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[Hendrik_2000]

I think 20MW per turbo generator is too small for anything like 09III or 09V. LA class and Virginia class all have similar dimention (smaller diameter if we trust wiki which I have no idea how does it know). These two classes have 26MW and 30MW per shaft/turbine. For same sized 09III and 09V to reach similar speed, they must have power per shaft somewhere between 26 and 30 MW regardless electrical drive or mechanical drive (the efficiency difference is minimal).

The recent announced steam generator is 20MW class, even if we consider anything between 18 to 22 as 20MW, it is still too small. The article claimed it runs at 110% rating, if 20MW is the designated standard load, 110% only gives 22MW, far from needed minimum 26MW.

The problem is always the ambiguous wording of class, it can be designation of upper limit, lower limit or middle point. And Chinese publication has used all the three.

On the other hand, if the 20MW class is NOT to mean "anything above 20", it means it is not for 09III and 09V, then what it is aiming to be used?

[note]: by shaft I meant turbine shaft, not propeller shaft.

The calculation does not lie it only need 30 MW to push thru a bluff body with 15m Diameter it does not need length. So size is not factor here all you need is diameter and speed that it in the equation So what are you talking here?
Beside they normally also carry turbine generator as a back up system

 

[Hendrik_2000]

deleted

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Look at low slung design of the turbo generator and the fact that Ma Weiming sit on the board that appraise this unit So there is no mistaken as to what is the intent of this turbo generator
Via Cirr

On December 4, 20 MW class marine turbogenerator units with complete intellectual property rights, independently developed by the Fourth Seventy-four Research Institutions, passed the appraisal of scientific and technological achievements and became the highest power class marine turbogenerator units in China. Ma Weiming, academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, He Lin, academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering and experts from relevant domestic academies serve as members of the appraisal committee. Gao Xiaomin, director of the four institutes, and Zhao Yueping, assistant director of the four institutes attended the appraisal meeting.

The project has successfully broken through many key technologies such as multi-oil motor high-voltage electro-hydraulic speed regulation, dual-channel backflow integrated bypass and variable speed operation for power generation. It has innovatively applied the design of direct-connected dual-flexible rotor shafting and low-frequency multi-line spectrum active control. The power of the project has reached four times the full power of the existing marine turbogenerator units in China and is equivalent to the power level of the most advanced turbogenerator units in Europe and the United States.

Experts of the appraisal committee agreed that the achievements of the project filled the gap of domestic high-power marine turbogenerator units and reached the international advanced level. As the core equipment of the large-capacity marine power system, the project not only provided the electric power guarantee for the propulsion system, but also laid the foundation for the future full-electric application of ships. It has great military value and social benefits.

Type 93 dimension
Type: nuclear-powered attack submarine
Displacement: 7,000 tonnes (submerged)

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Length: 110 m

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Beam: 11 m

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Draft: 7.5 m

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Propulsion: Pressurized water nuclear reactor
Speed: 30

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Range: Unlimited
Armament:

• 6 × 553 mm or 650 mm torpedo tubes
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  tubes

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Via Lkj 86

 

[Anlsvrthng]

You are dense or what The generator shown in bare When in actual use they will put it on acoustic shroud that will enveloped the whole generator and turbine assembly
The whole thing will put on the raft that isolate any vibration using feed back loop control

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Vibration is not a function of generator frequency but of the generator speed Motor frequency has nothing to do with vibration I make a living doing vibration control so I know what I am talking about instead of you amateur with your mumbo jumbo frequency

There is always imperfection in machining moving part that will create imbalance because it rotate at high speed of 3600 rpm. Add to that imperfection in bearing and even minute run out will create vibration So your machining and fabrication must be top notch with high precision and super low tolerance But even that is not enough They make provision for that
So you design your supporting structure to be stiff and you can calculate those structure stiffness

I don't know what are you talking about frequency there is converter that will convert the out put of the generator to any frequency that you want using combination of rectifier and inverter You also can change the speed of the generator to suit that is why you have control valve on the Turbine genius!

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Absorption over 300 km
100 Hz: 0.3db (50 Hz should have less absorption )
400 Hz :5.1db
1000 Hz:17.4db

Any more question ?