09V/09VI (095/096) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[gelgoog]

It is hard to fathom what kind of parts require higher accuracy on something as bulky as a submarine, at these kind of tolerances temperature becomes very important and single digits temperature change on anything but the smallest parts will lead to thermal expansions that are bigger then the manufacturing tolerances.

The talk the US had about Toshiba CNC machines being used in the Soviet nuclear submarine program was how they were being used to make the submarine's propellers. If you can believe that.

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The US talk you often read in news blurbs out there that implies the Soviets did not have CNC machines is bollocks though. The Soviet military industrial complex had them. But they were less advanced in general than the best Western models. The Soviets basically had 3 axis CNC machines I think.

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"The CNC system "Elektronika NTs-31" is one of the most common CNC systems for lathes, despite its more than 30 years of age.
...
Specifications CNC "Electronika NTs-31"
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Number of control axes - up to 3;
...
Serial production of NTs-31 was started in 1980 at the Angstrem enterprise, and then transferred to the Kvant factories (Zelenograd), Diffusion (Smolensk) and the Vitebsk television plant Vityaz. "Angstrem" and "Kvant" alone produced 3846 sets NTs-31. Mass production of NTs-31 was established at the Diffusion plant. Machine tools with NTs-31 are still being used, after 20-30 years."

The truth is submarine propellers (screws) can be done by hand with simpler tools with experienced personnel. The main advantage of the CNC machines is you can more reliably get good results. In the case of military production of limited run things like submarines this waste can be tolerated.

 

[sunnymaxi]

Are super advanced CNC required for aviation engines? It seems that China has made some progress on WS-10, WS-20, and some other aviation engines.

nope. first of all you need to know one thing. super advanced CNC machine don't required in aero engine except some precision metals cutting. engines and other high end industrial components requires of complete set of machine tools like CNC machine , drilling machine , grinding machine , milling machine , boring machine , shapers and planers.

this is laser drilling machine. widely used in turbine blades manufacturing.

this machine developed by Xi‘an Institute of Optics and Fine Mechanics.



This is 5 axis CNC machine developed by Chinese firm KEDE. is among the most advanced in the world.



Chongqing Machine Tool (Group) Co., Ltd. one of leading players globally.

this Chinese firm basically produce all types of machine tools, requires in heavy engineering. Chinese military industrial complex mostly used their tools.

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Drive to manufacture domestic tools pays off

By ZHANG XIAOMIN in Dalian, Liaoning | China Daily | Updated: 2022-07-18 09:14
About 100 five-axis computer numerical control machine tools are being produced in the manufacturing shop at the Dalian Guangyang Technology Group in Jinpu New Area in Northeast China's Liaoning province.

"We've applied for some 20 international patents for this processing center, which is capable of processing large structural aircraft parts," Yu Dehai, president of the company, said while standing in front of a large machine tool.

Dalian Guangyang is a leading manufacturer of high-end CNC machine tools in the country.

In the office above the workshop, 71-year-old Yu works with the researchers and developers that account for more than a quarter of the company's 1,200 employees.

"I'm lucky that what I'm working on matches my passions. It is the same with our R&D colleagues. It is easier to achieve good results by combining work with interests," Yu said.

Previously, China's high-end CNC machine tools market was dominated by a couple of major foreign manufacturers. Yu and his colleagues changed that with the cost-effective products they developed.

"This is our main driving force for following a path of independent innovation," Yu said.

"We will produce the world's most advanced five-axis CNC machine tools and make exorbitantly priced imported machine tools a thing of the past."

According to Yu, the five-axis CNC machine tool sector is part of the core competitiveness of the country's manufacturing industry, as it has a decisive influence in a number of industries.

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now you see, there are a lot Chinese firms, actually produce high end machine tools.


precision manufacturing requires tools , skilled labor and competent environment. China actually improved a lot and rapidly closing the gap with top players like USA and Germany. i think this is what tphuang trying to say this.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

Which Russian sub is that advanced? The Russian boomers get tracked as soon as they leave the port by USN. Akula class became quiet in the later units because they are just so large, so that Russians could put more sound absorbers in there. Yasen class is said to be close to Virginia class because they have even wider pressure hull than Akula class. I don't think the Russians are actually better at making quieter steam engines and different pumps than China. China may be able to improve their rafting technology from cooperating with the Russians, but I don't see any reason why Russian sound absorbers would be better than what China has now.

I don't claim to be an expert in how to make these things really quiet. I'm simply relaying what I heard about precision manufacturing from submariners. From what I can see, the final design for 093B and 095 lines up almost perfectly with when China got competent at precision manufacturing. It passes the smell test for me. Of course there are other things involved in reducing noise level. There is probably a lot of research into materials used in manufacturing and material used in rafting and tiling and such. I'm novice in all of these areas. It just seems to me that submarine quieting technology is a manifestation of the overall hard science/tech development. And China has only become good in this area very recently.

Vibration related issues are complicated ones, not related simply one parameters of the machien, but every aspect of it.

It is a painfull iteration process, because you need to make the whole subarine to know the level of noise. So, each iteration step, new technology and idea can be proove only when the whole submarine finished.

Example simple soundproofing the window in the house.

The acoustic performance of them depends on the thickness, but it is not simply "more is better", but like the glass has to have two different thickness, the size of the window, if it is too big then there is a need for cross reinforcement to break it smaller vibrating sections.

And so on .

 

[Biscuits]

I strongly doubt that the reason for China not proceeding to produce 095/096 is due to problems with high-end CNCs. It's even more ludicrous to suggest that reason is that China has to source core components for CNCs from Germany or Japan. It all sounds like a fantasy story inspired by the alleged Toshiba CNCs helping Soviet Union achieve its magic leap of progress in submarine quietness.

There might be any number of reasons for the supposedly delayed production of 095/096, but lack of proper CNCs would be ranked among the least likely.

The most simple explanation is that you can not get funding for many units of nuclear subs on a small military budget. Therefore China kept its tech updated but didn't invest in building large numbers.

The SSN school in China needs to compete with the existing SSK force that has the advantage of having world leading subs in service already right now, with no need to wait for builds nor for new crews. They also have decent numbers already.

Besides that, there is also the school of thinking that intends to use unmanned platforms/satellites/underwater networks to perform ASW.

Imo China avoided building many SSN because of the above factors. Funding is low and competition over existing resources is high.

As have been written above, China has some of the most advanced CNC capacities in the world, which may or may not be commercially viable, but that wouldn't matter for military submarines.

Instead, I think the reactor was the major bottleneck. An overly expensive and unreliable reactor means its more efficient to build SSKs using the same quieting technologies. But now, something has changed, it is likely that a cheap, powerful and reliable reactor model exists. We have seen construction of SSK halting.

 

[tphuang]

engines and other high end industrial components requires of complete set of machine tools like CNC machine , drilling machine , grinding machine , milling machine , boring machine , shapers and planers.

now you see, there are a lot Chinese firms, actually produce high end machine tools.

precision manufacturing requires tools , skilled labor and competent environment. China actually improved a lot and rapidly closing the gap with top players like USA and Germany. i think this is what tphuang trying to say this.

Right, I'm saying this is a very recent development. Western countries have had years of development in this area and China has only been able to throw money into this in the past 30 years. So now, they have the tools, material science and technology to build less noisy machines. they've also had experience building quieter in general. 093A has been getting progressively quieter over the 10 to 15 years window since the first 093s joined service.

The aero-engines that they produce have been getting a lot quieter too. For example, WZ-10s are apparently so quiet that you can't hear Z-20 until they are over your head. And obviously, for CJ1000A has very stringent noise level criteria it needs to meet for commercial service. I'm not saying that pumps and steam engine operate the same way as aero-engines, but rather that they now have the tools to make much quieter machines for nuclear submarine. That's why they are able to start mass producing 093Bs and 095s. China has thoroughly planned this out. Back in 2010, I was one of those that was hoping they'd produce 095 by 2015. But all I got was more 093As that looked almost like the very loud 093s. You see, China was slowly iterating through technology during most of last decade on this.

The most simple explanation is that you can not get funding for many units of nuclear subs on a small military budget. Therefore China kept its tech updated but didn't invest in building large numbers.

The SSN school in China needs to compete with the existing SSK force that has the advantage of having world leading subs in service already right now, with no need to wait for builds nor for new crews. They also have decent numbers already.

hmm, they didn't build SSK for 4/5 years. SSKs are basically useless unless they have air cover. Even 039C waited for 4/5 years because the technology they needed for 039C wasn't ready.

The idea that SSN needs to compete with SSK is nonsensical. Any submariner would tell you that.

Besides that, there is also the school of thinking that intends to use unmanned platforms/satellites/underwater networks to perform ASW.

Imo China avoided building many SSN because of the above factors. Funding is low and competition over existing resources is high.

As have been written above, China has some of the most advanced CNC capacities in the world, which may or may not be commercially viable, but that wouldn't matter for military submarines.

Not true, Kede has only been competitive since 2017. PLAN does not mass produce a shipping class until it is ready to do so. We've seen this through many years. Just think about all the iterations they did from 052 to 051B to 052B to 052C/051C until they got to 052D that they are happy with.

Instead, I think the reactor was the major bottleneck. An overly expensive and unreliable reactor means its more efficient to build SSKs using the same quieting technologies. But now, something has changed, it is likely that a cheap, powerful and reliable reactor model exists. We have seen construction of SSK halting.

Again, SSN construction slowness not related to SSK. SSK construction has restarted recently.
Reactor was a bottleneck, but only for 095/096. 093/094 reactor is not new technology. China is perfectly capable of mass producing that. Who told you 093 reactor is overly expensive and unreliable?

Delta 3/4 is about the size of 094 with 8.7 m diameter pressure hull and a hump back to accommodate the missiles.

The big problem is not that quieting machinery is particularly hard but that quieting isn't really relevant in any other industrial application. Nobody cares how loud a steam turbine in a powerplant is.

I'm not sure what your point is. Delta 3/4 are super loud and so is 094. They have to get more space in there for 096. Guancha people said it a few years ago. There is only so many things you can try in a sub like 093 due to space limitations. You need more space.

I disagree that quieting machinery is not particularly hard. If it's easy, then China would've done it by now. The principal of it isn't hard, but it takes year or work to iterate through the process and keep reducing their noise level.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

On the topic of SSK versus SSN, I think it mainly depends on the operational doctrines of the respective navies.

For instance, the US Navy and the Royal Navy does not have any requirements for underwater operations near their home waters, as their commitments and interests lay abroad for most of the time, alongside their global power projection intentions using their navy. That's why both of them got rid of their SSKs completely in favor of having just SSNs to fulfill their roles.

Meanwhile, the PLA Navy and the Russian Navy require underwater fleets that can operate in both near their home waters (to defend against enemy warships intruding near home waters) and further away in the high seas (to intercept enemy warships sailing from afar). That's why both of them procure SSNs and SSKs simultaneously.

For the US and UK, procuring both SSKs and SSNs will have 内卷 issues. For China and Russia, procuring both SSKs and SSNs will not have 内卷 issues.

 

[latenlazy]

Vibration related issues are complicated ones, not related simply one parameters of the machien, but every aspect of it.

It is a painfull iteration process, because you need to make the whole subarine to know the level of noise. So, each iteration step, new technology and idea can be proove only when the whole submarine finished.

Example simple soundproofing the window in the house.

The acoustic performance of them depends on the thickness, but it is not simply "more is better", but like the glass has to have two different thickness, the size of the window, if it is too big then there is a need for cross reinforcement to break it smaller vibrating sections.

And so on .

Yup. Vibration issues are ultimately resonance and harmonic problems and they typically require a multi factor approach to address. What matters even more than high precision machining to deal with these problems is metrology, analysis methods, and modeling, all competences which are driven or aided to large degrees by more advanced computation.

 

[Maikeru]

Yup. Vibration issues are ultimately resonance and harmonic problems and they typically require a multi factor approach to address. What matters even more than high precision machining to deal with these problems is metrology, analysis methods, and modeling, all competences which are driven or aided to large degrees by more advanced computation.

Somewhat O/T but it is resonance & harmonic problems that have caused the problems with the UK's Ajax programme (as well as making a recon vehicle 40+ tonnes being a stupid idea anyway).

 

[Biscuits]

Right, I'm saying this is a very recent development. Western countries have had years of development in this area and China has only been able to throw money into this in the past 30 years. So now, they have the tools, material science and technology to build less noisy machines. they've also had experience building quieter in general. 093A has been getting progressively quieter over the 10 to 15 years window since the first 093s joined service.

The aero-engines that they produce have been getting a lot quieter too. For example, WZ-10s are apparently so quiet that you can't hear Z-20 until they are over your head. And obviously, for CJ1000A has very stringent noise level criteria it needs to meet for commercial service. I'm not saying that pumps and steam engine operate the same way as aero-engines, but rather that they now have the tools to make much quieter machines for nuclear submarine. That's why they are able to start mass producing 093Bs and 095s. China has thoroughly planned this out. Back in 2010, I was one of those that was hoping they'd produce 095 by 2015. But all I got was more 093As that looked almost like the very loud 093s. You see, China was slowly iterating through technology during most of last decade on this.


hmm, they didn't build SSK for 4/5 years. SSKs are basically useless unless they have air cover. Even 039C waited for 4/5 years because the technology they needed for 039C wasn't ready.

The idea that SSN needs to compete with SSK is nonsensical. Any submariner would tell you that.

Not true, Kede has only been competitive since 2017. PLAN does not mass produce a shipping class until it is ready to do so. We've seen this through many years. Just think about all the iterations they did from 052 to 051B to 052B to 052C/051C until they got to 052D that they are happy with.


Again, SSN construction slowness not related to SSK. SSK construction has restarted recently.
Reactor was a bottleneck, but only for 095/096. 093/094 reactor is not new technology. China is perfectly capable of mass producing that. Who told you 093 reactor is overly expensive and unreliable?


I'm not sure what your point is. Delta 3/4 are super loud and so is 094. They have to get more space in there for 096. Guancha people said it a few years ago. There is only so many things you can try in a sub like 093 due to space limitations. You need more space.

I disagree that quieting machinery is not particularly hard. If it's easy, then China would've done it by now. The principal of it isn't hard, but it takes year or work to iterate through the process and keep reducing their noise level.

That SSKs are useless in undersea warfare is some sort of pervasive myth, perhaps spread by US because they don't use any(?). Why did Japan invest exclusively in SSKs if they would just be useless against Soviet SSNs anyways?

SSKs are on average able to be quieter due to lack of noisy nuclear reactor. Ability to sustain sprinting speeds of 30kn are useless when you're defending.

The main mission for the Chinese navy is to defend the home waters, defined as Chinese possessions in the SCS and the entirety of the 1st island chain.

Regarding reactors, I'm actually NOT sure China is capable of mass producing those types of nuclear propulsion modules. We have very seldom seen nuclear propulsion vessels from China, even ones which would make sense such as the 003. Even the small French CdG uses nuclear propulsion, if the existing reactor is so good, why wouldn't China procure more of it? If not for CVs, at least for stuff like icebreakers or even larger surface ships.

Unless there is proof that the 093 reactors are very good, I'd say that they're not. There has to be some sort of error to them which prohibits widespread adoption.

The fact that China is now trying to create new reactor types such as the rumored one which can be loaded disposably into the ship like a VLS implies that they do want new nuclear propulsion methods.

 

[tphuang]

That SSKs are useless in undersea warfare is some sort of pervasive myth, perhaps spread by US because they don't use any(?). Why did Japan invest exclusively in SSKs if they would just be useless against Soviet SSNs anyways?

where are they going to get the technology from? It was an extraordinary deal when America shared its nuclear submarine tech with Australia and they are still dealing with NPT issues now.

Japan has the quietest diesel subs, but the moment that China controls the air space, those diesel subs are dead.

SSKs are on average able to be quieter due to lack of noisy nuclear reactor. Ability to sustain sprinting speeds of 30kn are useless when you're defending.

except the problem for diesel subs is that they can't move at all and they can't stage submerged permanently. They have to surface or at least snorkel every couple of days.

The main mission for the Chinese navy is to defend the home waters, defined as Chinese possessions in the SCS and the entirety of the 1st island chain.

Until 2027, yes. But at a certain point, China is building blue water navy for a reason. You cannot threaten Pearl or San Diego with Yuan class.

Regarding reactors, I'm actually NOT sure China is capable of mass producing those types of nuclear propulsion modules. We have very seldom seen nuclear propulsion vessels from China, even ones which would make sense such as the 003. Even the small French CdG uses nuclear propulsion, if the existing reactor is so good, why wouldn't China procure more of it? If not for CVs, at least for stuff like icebreakers or even larger surface ships.

It does make sense that China is behind Western countries in this aspect. However, they've made significant progress in their own reactor designs in the past 5 years. They've worked with more types of nuclear reactors than any other nation. They also have the very advanced ACPR50S design for FNPP projects that is basically perfect for 095.

Unless there is proof that the 093 reactors are very good, I'd say that they're not. There has to be some sort of error to them which prohibits widespread adoption.

The fact that China is now trying to create new reactor types such as the rumored one which can be loaded disposably into the ship like a VLS implies that they do want new nuclear propulsion methods.

093 reactors probably aren't state of the art. However, they have built quite a few of them for 093 and 094s. I'm not sure what you mean by the second part.

nuclear reactors isn't the source of the noise. 093 reactors are safe and powerful enough for a ship of its class. There is no reason to believe they can't mass produce them cheaply. That's never been the limiting factor for 093 production.