09V/09VI (095/096) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[sunnymaxi]

I don't think there is any confirmation. I'm just assuming they are single or hybrid. Regarding the 12m segment we saw, my submarine contact believes that it is for 096. He did say that it is in the "graving dock", so may be a trial production rather than a boat under construction. That is quite interesting, because I thought it would be a while before they would even try something like trial production for 096. If they have started 096 project at this point, then 095 should be further along and already in production for some time. Keep in mind that Ohio clas has beam of about 12.5 m for reactor hull IIRC. So 12m would be a reasonably wide hull for 096.

At this point, I've also been told that the best CNC machine that China has access to is still likely some years behind the best one available for America. The really high end CNCs are still off limit to Chinese companies. So it is likely that while China has made a lot of progress up until this point, they are still a good decade or two behind America in machineries (like they are in turbofan engine). But even with that, 095 will likely be wider than Virginia class, so the first 095 boat is likely to be around early Virginia class in noise level and then steadily improving as they work out the problems.

As for why they've waited until this long to mass produce 093B and then 095, I think the answer is quite simple. They've only figured out how to produce competitive CNC machines (that are mostly using domestic parts) in the past 4 or 5 years. You really can't start detailed designs of a new submarine class until you are able to produce steam turbine with very high precision manufacturing.

The 095 class and mass production of 095/093B is quite significant. It will final give China a matching modern nuclear submarine fleet to USN. At a time when USN is facing a retirement cliff of LA/Ohio class subs and having trouble ramping up Virginia class production due to not having enough welders. If Bohai shipbuilding can ramp up production to something like 6 to 8 a year, that will be very significant. Eventually, I think PLAN will have a much large nuclear submarine fleet than USN. Based on the size Huludao facilities, I think that might come sooner than what most of us expected.

Germany and Japan are global leaders in machine tools.

but you are spot on about China's delay in next generation Submarine production. from past 5 years they have been working on high end CNC machine components and recently government issued a report about progress. and guess what, they have mentioned defense industry. another strong hint

their statement as follow -

At present, the industry has formed a complete industrial system and is in the second echelon of the world as a whole, providing strong support for national defense security and the construction of a strong manufacturing country.

Ministry of Industry and Information Technology: The market share of domestic high-end CNC systems has increased to 31.9%

 

[sunnymaxi]

Are those specialized machines for Submarine production ? To my knowledge all the "Regular" CNC high end brands for milling all sell to China, Makino,Heller,Kern,Hermle,DMG etc all sell to China.

China have own complete set of domestic machine tools but efficiency and some core parts were imported from Japan and Germany. last 4-5 years were significant and few weeks ago government announced, we have completed the industrial chain of high end machine tools.

China was actually waiting for domestically produce core components

Ministry of Industry and Information Technology: The market share of domestic high-end CNC systems has increased to 31.9%

 

[Anlsvrthng]

This thing about "subarine production and CNC machines" is a myth.

Coming from the "Japanese sold CNC to Soviets and now they make silent subs" is a rubbish propaganda thingy, claiming the magical American touch required for good subarines.

There is no need of special machines to make these equipments. CNC could decrease the leadtime for manufacturing, and makes possible faster production run, but nothing else.

 

[tphuang]

Are those specialized machines for Submarine production ? To my knowledge all the "Regular" CNC high end brands for milling all sell to China, Makino,Heller,Kern,Hermle,DMG etc all sell to China.

The exact phrase I received was

The problem is that CNC construction for submarine propulsion plants, at least for extremely quiet boats, are way beyond the normal run of a mill production even in the West.

So I'm assuming that even high end commercial CNCs are behind what some of these defense firms are using. And they probably have banned those machines from being exported.

 

[latenlazy]

At this point, I've also been told that the best CNC machine that China has access to is still likely some years behind the best one available for America. The really high end CNCs are still off limit to Chinese companies. So it is likely that while China has made a lot of progress up until this point, they are still a good decade or two behind America in machineries (like they are in turbofan engine). But even with that, 095 will likely be wider than Virginia class, so the first 095 boat is likely to be around early Virginia class in noise level and then steadily improving as they work out the problems.

Chinese CNCs are behind in reliability, not capability.

The exact phrase I received was

So I'm assuming that even high end commercial CNCs are behind what some of these defense firms are using. And they probably have banned those machines from being exported.

If this source is who I think it is, said person isn’t up to date on Chinese CNCs.

 

[sunnymaxi]

Chinese CNCs are behind in reliability, not capability.



If this source is who I think it is, said person isn’t up to date on Chinese CNCs.

true. and i forgot to mention Chinese firm KEDE 5 axis ultra advance machine tool .

just look at his video. officially released by the company .. maybe not efficient as German/Japanese counterparts but advance enough to produce any type of high end component.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517542597937737729

 

[latenlazy]

true. and i forgot to mention Chinese firm KEDE 5 axis ultra advance machine tool .

just look at his video. officially released by the company .. maybe not efficient as German/Japanese counterparts but advance enough to produce any type of high end component.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517542597937737729

Always need to distinguish between “can you do it” and “can you commercialize it” with Chinese tech development.

 

[Derpy]

The exact phrase I received was

So I'm assuming that even high end commercial CNCs are behind what some of these defense firms are using. And they probably have banned those machines from being exported.

Must be some custom made machines then like in this video.

I thought that kind of accuracy was only needed in lithography and similar things.

This commercial mid to high end CNC with a precision option gets 3μm positional accuracy on one axis and 13μm volumetric accuracy with simultaneous 5 axis movement. For reference a human hair is about 70μm in diameter.
It is hard to fathom what kind of parts require higher accuracy on something as bulky as a submarine, at these kind of tolerances temperature becomes very important and single digits temperature change on anything but the smallest parts will lead to thermal expansions that are bigger then the manufacturing tolerances.

 

[tphuang]

true. and i forgot to mention Chinese firm KEDE 5 axis ultra advance machine tool .

just look at his video. officially released by the company .. maybe not efficient as German/Japanese counterparts but advance enough to produce any type of high end component.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517542597937737729

Yes, I know about Kede. Their products are probably widely used in military, engines, commercial aviation and other areas. They also import less parts than other domestic firms. They are competitive with Siemens. But there are apparently even higher precision CNCs that are for defense industry in US/UK.

It is hard to fathom what kind of parts require higher accuracy on something as bulky as a submarine, at these kind of tolerances temperature becomes very important and single digits temperature change on anything but the smallest parts will lead to thermal expansions that are bigger then the manufacturing tolerances.

So, I don't have the exact details here. Just think about how loud a steam engine for a 200 MWt nuclear reactor would be and what's needed to get it as quiet as your home washing machine. I was told that anything that spins in the machine room needs really highly precise machines to get less noisy. And then you need to install them on these huge sound absorbers to reduce noise in even further.

High precision machinery only fixes the first part. You still need more space for larger sound absorbers to reduce noise further. That's why 095 with its larger pressure hull should be a lot quieter than 093B even if they are using about the same generation sound absorbers and machines.

Bottom line is while China has made a lot of progress in this area, there is still a lot of room for improvement. Although as I said, mass produced 095s with large VLS farm and similar acoustic performance to a block 2 Virginia class would still be quite the game changer.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

Yes, I know about Kede. Their products are probably widely used in military, engines, commercial aviation and other areas. They also import less parts than other domestic firms. They are competitive with Siemens. But there are apparently even higher precision CNCs that are for defense industry in US/UK.


So, I don't have the exact details here. Just think about how loud a steam engine for a 200 MWt nuclear reactor would be and what's needed to get it as quiet as your home washing machine. I was told that anything that spins in the machine room needs really highly precise machines to get less noisy. And then you need to install them on these huge sound absorbers to reduce noise in even further.

That needs good ballancing pad, and persistent ballancing engineers.

And good ,matured design.

playing with number of rollers in the bearings, thickness of shafts and so on.

Precision of machining has minor effect on the noise level.

Have you ever seen manufacturing line for steam turbines ?

Generally, the precision of a milling/turning ,machine defined by the mass and rigidity of the machine, not about control and so on. That is the "who care" part of the story.

And even there ,there is ample playing room with feed rate, tool shape and so on.

Tool shape define the cutting force, force define the deofrmation of machine frame, deformation define the precision of the machine.

Many cases, for big parts the prefered machine is decade old, with good, settled cast parts, and with well known parameters.