09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread
- Thread starter SinoSoldier
- Start date
Don' t know 094 variant normaly they go after for 096 but accorfing last reports 5 planned ?
And mainly always not deterence patrol confirmed maybe this year, JL-2 seems ready since 2015.
Last FAS report.
You can see all this holes as Russians especialy Delta bad for hydrodynamic, noise but Chinese submarines have a single hull ?
I do wonder how much technology transfer is going on between Russia and China.
From the Russian perspective, an improved Chinese nuclear submarine force has a whole bunch of advantages and very few drawbacks.
Advantages
1. More money for Russia, as times are bad due to economic sanctions placed by the USA and Europe
2. Better Chinese submarines forces the USA to devote more military resources to the Western Pacific and the Navy, instead of to Europe and the Army.
Disadvantages
1. China becomes a better export competitor. Doesn't really apply to nuclear submarines, but the technology could be applied to better conventional AIP submarines. But come to think of it, better Chinese submarines should drive demand for even more sales of Russian submarines to counter.
2. A better Chinese submarine force could be used against Russia, but given that they already share thousands of kilometers of land border and the parlous state of the Russian Pacific Fleet, it's not going to make much difference in terms of the balance of forces. And because they share a border, both will be fighting over core territory, which makes nuclear escalation almost certain. And neither Russia or China would be stupid enough to go to war.
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So when I look at it, there seem to be powerful reasons for Russia to be transferring submarine technology to China.
From the Russian perspective, an improved Chinese nuclear submarine force has a whole bunch of advantages and very few drawbacks.
Advantages
1. More money for Russia, as times are bad due to economic sanctions placed by the USA and Europe
2. Better Chinese submarines forces the USA to devote more military resources to the Western Pacific and the Navy, instead of to Europe and the Army.
Disadvantages
1. China becomes a better export competitor. Doesn't really apply to nuclear submarines, but the technology could be applied to better conventional AIP submarines. But come to think of it, better Chinese submarines should drive demand for even more sales of Russian submarines to counter.
2. A better Chinese submarine force could be used against Russia, but given that they already share thousands of kilometers of land border and the parlous state of the Russian Pacific Fleet, it's not going to make much difference in terms of the balance of forces. And because they share a border, both will be fighting over core territory, which makes nuclear escalation almost certain. And neither Russia or China would be stupid enough to go to war.
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So when I look at it, there seem to be powerful reasons for Russia to be transferring submarine technology to China.
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except that does not say 093B has the noise level of improved LA class, but rather the modification from 093 to 093B is like the from early to improved LA class. That i would agree with entirely. As I said, the most recent 2 at Huludao looks to have even wider beam, which could indicate a further modification and improved performance.
I think you should be a little more skeptical here. While this is possibly some encouraging news for PLA fans/watchers, it is only one voice and not necessarily one without an agenda. There have been plenty of similar articles from the likes of Richard Fisher, Bill Gertz and their ilk hyping up the Yellow Peril and this article reads like it's straight from their handbook: "China has just built toy x that's shockingly (almost) as good as our toy y. bla bla bla. We need to put more money into program z. The end." If we start seeing more articles saying something similar about the 093B being as quiet as the 688i, then we should perk up and take interest. For now, I'm going to go with the 093B being a modest improvement over the 093, which itself was a modest improvement over the 091, which itself was an atrociously loud first generation nuclear submarine. The 095 will be at the technological level of the 688i, or maybe slightly better like the improved Akula. It will take a 097 to get to the Seawolf/Virginia class. That's my guess for now.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
You are right that is your guess and your guess is wrong. I heard this kind of circular reasoning so many times. But the defense budget has been going down year by year . So this scare tactic obviously doesn't work But why keep doing it So it doesn't make sense
China built new submarine type roughly every 10 years . And 10 years is long time In the intervening year the Chinese civilian nuclear, shipping,material and electronic industry has advance beyond my wilder expectation.
These civilian advances certainly rub off to the military sector. So it make sense that each of the new type of submarine represent generational change in their design such as noise level, reactor technology, electronic and weapon system. Otherwise why bother spend so much time and effort in designing new submarine. Might as well stay with the same design.
It is hard to differentiate one type of submarine from other But we always can see small outward improvement in their design. On the surface ship we can see definite technological leap and why should submarine does stay the same It is the same navy?
But some people cannot accept this fact and in denial
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Let's just say that I don't accept your internet guess as being any better than my own.
If you assume that 688 and 688i represent generational differences, then the US has gone through no less than 5 generations of nuclear submarines to get to where 688i was and 6 to get to where Seawolf is. We won't even count the Nautilus as its own generation and we'll even count the Skate and Skipjack classes as a single generation because they were built at almost the same time:
1. Skate/Skipjack class
2. Permit/Thresher class
3. Sturgeon class
4. Los Angeles class
5. Improved Los Angeles class
6. Seawolf/Virginia class
How many generations have the PLAN subs gone through? Let's count the 093B as a separate generation; this gives us only 3 generations of nuclear subs.
1. 091 class
2. 093 class
3. 093B class
Given the extremely low level of technological base that China started from when the 091 and 093 were built, a reasonable progression sees only a one generation improvement from 091 to 093. This corresponds to a Skate/Skipjack to Permit/Thresher improvement. From 093 to 093B is anyone's guess (you certainly don't know, despite your rhetoric). If we allow a 1.5 generation leapfrog, due to rapidly advancing Chinese technological base since the early 093 subs put to sea, the 093B would be somewhere between Sturgeon and early LA; a more improbable 2 generation leap puts it at early LA. Your fantastical scenario sees a 3 generation leap from Permit/Thresher level of the 093 all the way to 688i acoustic levels for the 093B. Is this impossible? No. Is this probable? No. For me the most likely scenario is a 093B that is somewhere between Sturgeon and early LA, maybe even as good as early LA. For you it sounds like the sky is the limit.