09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
So I've done some thinking about this whole story, and this is my assessment.

Now, everyone knows actual nuclear submarine production for the PLAN is done at Bohai shipyard, while diesel electric submarine production is done at Wuchang and Jiangnan shipyards. Full size nuclear submarines are indeed a bit large to safely navigate to and from Wuchang shipyard down the entirety of the Yangtze river.
This purported "Zhou class" (which prior to now is a designation which has not been used before in any mainstream capacity) is being claimed to have been built at Wuchang. It's possible they are attributing that name to the mysterious X tail submarine that we've seen at Wuchang.

The idea that nuclear submarine production is being expanded from Bohai to Wuchang is inconsistent with every other report, rumour and imagery that we have when projecting PLAN nuclear submarine trends into the near future, which is that the expansion of nuclear submarine production capacity is occurring at Bohai.
Now, one co-occurring rumour we do have in recent years is that the PLAN may be pursuing a miniature nuclear submarine, or rather a diesel/nuclear submarine hybrid (where a low pressure nuclear reactor is installed with a diesel electric submarine), and that was expected to be built at Jiangnan shipyard and possibly Wuchang as well, however the first hull was not expected to be already in the water so early, most expected it to emerge from 2025 onwards, if that.


Based on all of the above, there are basically two major questions that need to be answered:
1. Was there actually a submarine that sunk in the first place?
2. If 1. is true, then what was the actual type of submarine that sunk?

For question 1, despite the lack of convincing visual evidence and the lack of a clear affirmatory quote from the DoD official in the WSJ article, I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt and say it is possible that there was a submarine that sank, simply on the basis that it seems highly highly odd for a relatively reputable and mainstream outlet like WSJ to push a piece of news like this without there being some level of corroborating proof outside of a satellite image showing a few floating cranes. But they really haven't helped themselves out by not outright quoting the DoD official affirming such an event if it occurred.

For question 2, this requires one to have a bit of knowledge about PLAN nuclear submarine production distribution/predictions and local geography. I find it immensely unlikely that any proper nuclear submarine that we know is in production or likely to be in production soon (meaning SSN like 09IIIB, or upcoming 09V etc, let alone SSBN like 09IV/A/B or upcoming 09VI) would be anywhere near Wuchang shipyard let alone be actually built there. That leaves a few other options -- it could have been the first of the "mini-nuke" submarine that they're developing, or it may be a one-off testbed submarine which may or may not be related to the "mini-nuke" itself, or it may be just a new conventional submarine.

In order of most likely to least likely identification if an actual submarine did sink, IMO:
Conventional submarine > "Mini-nuke" testbed submarine > Lead boat of new "mini-nuke" submarine >>>> Proper SSN (or SSBN)


Ultimately big claims have a big burden of evidence, and the pictures demonstrated show nothing convincing, and the unnamed DoD official doesn't have actual affirmative quotes of the event being stated. While there is no reason to think the author of the original article is making everything up, the evidence shown is unconvincing and circumstantial at best, and if they had access to more clearcut quotes there should hopefully be a good reason for actually omitting it.

And all of this is without getting into the underlying credibility of how your usual media reporting/literacy of PLA matters are like, and their ability to accurately interpret (let alone ask the right questions) to people who may have access to privileged information on the PLA.



Incidentally, I think this specific situation can be one where comments from the likes of shilao and yankee on their podcast can actually be useful.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Reuters article doesnt mention wsj for some reason. Their wording makes it seem as if a us official did directly confirm it. Whether they are actually just refering to the wsj article and their official is unknown.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Then there is cbs article where it is claimed an official confirmed it to cbs.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

It would be helpful if a dod spokesman actually went on record and said it but that doesn't seem like it's gonna happen.

The fact the river is like 6 m deep doesn't mean that some special part of it near the shipyard was purposely made deeper.

But If a sub did sink, salvage op couldnt have been done overnight. Those ops take days, do they not?. There should be satellite images of at least some part of the salvage op clearly showing a sub out there, if it happened.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Reuters article doesnt mention wsj for some reason. Their wording makes it seem as if a us official did directly confirm it. Whether they are actually just refering to the wsj article and their official is unknown.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Then there is cbs article where it is claimed an official confirmed it to cbs.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

It would be helpful if a dod spokesman actually went on record and said it but that doesn't seem like it's gonna happen.

The fact the river is like 6 m deep doesn't mean that some special part of it near the shipyard was purposely made deeper.

But If a sub did sink, salvage op couldnt have been done overnight. Those ops take days, do they not?. There should be satellite images of at least some part of the salvage op clearly showing a sub out there, if it happened.
Conning tower is higher than draft. Where's the conning tower?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Reuters article doesnt mention wsj for some reason. Their wording makes it seem as if a us official did directly confirm it. Whether they are actually just refering to the wsj article and their official is unknown.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Then there is cbs article where it is claimed an official confirmed it to cbs.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

It would be helpful if a dod spokesman actually went on record and said it but that doesn't seem like it's gonna happen.

The fact the river is like 6 m deep doesn't mean that some special part of it near the shipyard was purposely made deeper.

But If a sub did sink, salvage op couldnt have been done overnight. Those ops take days, do they not?. There should be satellite images of at least some part of the salvage op clearly showing a sub out there, if it happened.

Most of this kind of reporting tends to be a game of telephone so I would be surprised if anyone was able to definitively wring out a more clear answer or statement.

My own feeling is that it's possible that something did occur involving a submarine, but it's possible it wasn't anything as dramatic as "sinking" and it certainly isn't a proper nuclear submarine.

One possibility I'm toying with is if a submarine underwent a trim test or diving test but there was a malfunction, requiring additional external input to refloat it. Such a possibility means the submarine would have remained watertight but also would not have required a particularly sophisticated or long lasting salvage operation.



Conning tower is higher than draft. Where's the conning tower?

In theory, we don't know if the area right next to the pier may have been dredged out or is a bit deeper than the rest of the river at that location, which would also enable them to conduct trim tests at pierside.
Alternatively, if one really wants to play devil's advocate for a sinking theory, one could argue that if it became waterfilled then the conning tower could be lying on the side (i.e.: the submarine itself had rolled onto its side).
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Most of this kind of reporting tends to be a game of telephone so I would be surprised if anyone was able to definitively wring out a more clear answer or statement.

My own feeling is that it's possible that something did occur involving a submarine, but it's possible it wasn't anything as dramatic as "sinking" and it certainly isn't a proper nuclear submarine.

One possibility I'm toying with is if a submarine underwent a trim test or diving test but there was a malfunction, requiring additional external input to refloat it. Such a possibility means the submarine would have remained watertight but also would not have required a particularly sophisticated or long lasting salvage operation.





In theory, we don't know if the area right next to the pier may have been dredged out or is a bit deeper than the rest of the river at that location, which would also enable them to conduct trim tests at pierside.
Alternatively, if one really wants to play devil's advocate for a sinking theory, one could argue that if it became waterfilled then the conning tower could be lying on the side (i.e.: the submarine itself had rolled onto its side).
How can it roll with horizontal stabilizers?

Also, the shadow shape is symmetrical, so where's the sideways conning tower?

Only way to have no visible conning tower + symmetrical outline is for the sub to sink upside-down.

And then the bottom hull will be visible.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
How can it roll with horizontal stabilizers?

I don't understand this question -- if a submarine (or any other vessel for that instance) sinks, the orientation in which it sinks will depend on which compartments and parts of the hull the water enters through initially, buoyancy, and any other forces acting on it.


Also, the shadow shape is symmetrical, so where's the sideways conning tower?

Only way to have no visible conning tower + symmetrical outline is for the sub to sink upside-down.

And then the bottom hull will be visible.

Well, the argument would be that if a SSK sized submarine had sunk and rolled onto its side, in theory it could be fully covered by water and not visible externally.

The shadow of course is just the shadow of the crane, and not a submarine.

The point I'm making is that technically speaking, the satellite picture we have can neither prove nor disprove anything and is basically useless.
 

lcloo

Captain
I am sure Wuchang shipyard is being watched constantly every few hours by satellites from multiple countries and as well as by commercial satellite imaging companies earning revenue from sales of images. I am also convinced that Wuchang shipyard management knows whcih satellite will appear overhead at which particular hour.

Salvaging a sunken ship or a submarine the size of type 039C will take at least half a day if not a full day's time. Therefore there is no way Wuchang shipyard can hide what they were doing with 4 work barge with cranes right at one of the most sensitive spot at the river bank. Images would have been taken many times by many different satellites.

The few images that we have shown shows no sunken ships. We also don't known what work these barges were doing then.

So under such circumsatances, the reputation of western media, which consistently having prejudice against China, does have a larger weight on people's perceptiion on the trustworthiness of such news article.
 
Last edited:

OppositeDay

Senior Member
Registered Member
If what's being claimed (a nuclear sub sunk in Wuhan) was true US Congress' (Anti-)China Committee would be holding a meeting very soon to discuss banning Chinese imports from Yangtze river delta. Again I don't think DoD officials should be seen as a credible sources on this matter unless they're testifying under oath given their history of spreading misinformation on Chinese vaccines. Maybe they'll be given a chance soon.

Also if this is true why is the Weibo account of US Embassy in Beijing silent? I'm sure they would love to replay the Beijing PM2.5 index scenario. Why isn't the State Department issuing warnings to Americans living in Wuhan? Are the US embassy and the State Department working with PRC to cover up an incident involving a nuclear sub in a densely populated city where I'm sure a sizable number of Americans live?

This is obviously not a technical post but at this point the whole thing is basically a big 'trust me bro'.
 
Top