09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Hence, once proper updates and amendments are made, the table should look like this (as of early-September 2024):

Unit No.Launch MonthInterval Between Launches (in Months)
01May 2022N/A
02January 20237.5
03July 20235.5
04October 20233.5
05February/March 20244
06July 20234
07August 20241-1.5

Looks like neither was I able to avoid novice mistakes.

Rectified:
Unit No.Launch MonthInterval between Launches (in Months)
01May 2022N/A, 1st unit of the class
02January 20237.5
03July 20235.5
04October 20233.5
05February 20244
06July 20244
07August 20241 - 1.5

And given how both the US and Soviet Union regularly launched 5-6 SSNs + SSBNs every year during the Cold War - It should be quite easy for China (with Huludao's staggering 20 assembly bays) to at least match that rate (i.e. roughly one boat every 2 months), once everything there is up and running.
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
None of this relates to the prior conversation, which was about nuclear propulsion for proper SSNs and SSBNs, not about the rumoured SSKN.

The entire point of that part of my post was demonstrating that he didn't know what he was actually asking about -- he was wondering about nuclear power related bottlenecks for proper SSNs and SSBNs. He specified "miniaturisation" as a bottleneck, and I explained that what he meant to actually ask was about nuclear propulsion for SSNs/SSBNs in general rather than miniaturisation specifically.

Actually I knew what I was asking about. Isn't the hardest part of nuclear reactor on SSN about miniaturization ?

We all know that China is leading in civilian nuclear reactor, Hualong One is one of the safest and the best in the world but I haven't seen it has been translated well to nuclear reactor on SSN/SSBN (yet) which has much tighter space requirement hence about miniaturization
 

Blitzo

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Staff member
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Actually I knew what I was asking about. Isn't the hardest part of nuclear reactor on SSN about miniaturization ?

Okay, in that case your question is based off incomplete understanding.

For SSNs and SSBNs it isn't about miniaturisation in isolation.
I'll continue on this below.


We all know that China is leading in civilian nuclear reactor, Hualong One is one of the safest and the best in the world but I haven't seen it has been translated well to nuclear reactor on SSN/SSBN (yet) which has much tighter space requirement hence about miniaturization

No, think about the additional requirements for SSN/SSBNs, specifically quietening, which is not necessary for civilian usage. That will inform aspects of the groundup design of the overall reactor, such as circulation methods (to start with) which do not exist for civilian usage.

It's better to think about nuclear propulsion for submarines just as having its own set of requirements rather than being a "miniaturised" derivative of other civilian nuclear reactors. Because the bottleneck in the past wasn't about "miniaturising" civilian reactors per se, but rather the ability to design, develop and produce nuclear submarine appropriate reactors that were competitive.
(This is leaving aside relevant but not nuclear propulsion directly related subsystems and technology such as metallurgy for large pressure hulls, precision milling, soundproofing and rafting etc)
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Could this be where the nuclear carriers are built... Do the benefits of concentrating nuclear shipbuilding operations in one location outweigh any logistical downsides?

No. Building nuclear-powered surface warships can be an entirely different domain/league to buidling nuclear-powered submarines.



Speaking of the area north of the Huludao's 2nd phase section - Personally, I'm actually hoping for a Huludao's 3rd phase section. Though, said 3rd phase section should be designated largely for SSN and SSBN refueling and maintenance works, while leaving the 2nd phase to focus solely on the construction (read: pumping out) of new SSNs and SSBNs, and the 1st phase section for the decommissioning works of old SSNs and SSBNs.

But that might just be me.
 
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snake65

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Pumping out depends not just on hull construction. Matching production of military grade nuclear reactors and fuel is required. And a lot of highly skilled staff to operate them.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Looks like neither was I able to avoid novice mistakes.

Rectified:
Unit No.Launch MonthInterval between Launches (in Months)
01May 2022N/A, 1st unit of the class
02January 20237.5
03July 20235.5
04October 20233.5
05February 20244
06July 20244
07August 20241 - 1.5

And given how both the US and Soviet Union regularly launched 5-6 SSNs + SSBNs every year during the Cold War - It should be quite easy for China (with Huludao's staggering 20 assembly bays) to at least match that rate (i.e. roughly one boat every 2 months), once everything there is up and running.

that production bankrupted the Soviet Union and also killed the USA and it was a deliberate policy by US to force USSR to try and match the US pace knowing they would fall for the trap which they did

Nuclear submarines are very expensive to build and maintain so I think the Chinese policy of slow production for a sustained period of time is not a bad idea and China wont be falling for that trap
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
that production bankrupted the Soviet Union and also killed the USA and it was a deliberate policy by US to force USSR to try and match the US pace knowing they would fall for the trap which they did

Nuclear submarines are very expensive to build and maintain so I think the Chinese policy of slow production for a sustained period of time is not a bad idea and China wont be falling for that trap
Soviet Union failed for political instability, not military overspending, and not economic problem. In fact life was generally better than 2000 Russia. Soviet Union fall from military spending is a myth.

Just look at North Korea. Even bigger spending by percentage. Severe economic problem way worse than Soviet Union. They persisted, so long as politics is stable.

Back to topic, China clearly disagree with you given Huludao has max 20 productuon slot. Chinese sub production rate will surpass peak cold war US, just like they have in destroyers and cruisers.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Pumping out depends not just on hull construction. Matching production of military grade nuclear reactors and fuel is required. And a lot of highly skilled staff to operate them.

And I don't think those are going to be major problems that would continue bottlenecking China's underwater fleet expansion any longer than they had to.

It's 2024, not 1994.

that production bankrupted the Soviet Union and also killed the USA and it was a deliberate policy by US to force USSR to try and match the US pace knowing they would fall for the trap which they did

Nuclear submarines are very expensive to build and maintain so I think the Chinese policy of slow production for a sustained period of time is not a bad idea and China wont be falling for that trap

And today, China is the one with 20 nuclear-powered submarine assembly bays, not the US.

Of course, I'm not claiming that all those 20 bays will definitely be used solely for the new construction of SSNs and SSBNs, as some of those can (if not will) be used for the maintenance and refueling of older submarines. It's also valid that a sustained, stable annual rate of SSN+SSBN production is key to maintain shipyard workforce size and efficiency.

However, being "slow" in a time of reignited arms race across the Pacific while getting strangled ever tighter by the US&LC across the eastern and southern coastlines and borders isn't exactly smart. That means 2-3 SSNs per year isn't going to cut it anymore - Especially once a new design has become proven and reliable for serial production.

A stable build rate of 4-5 SSNs per year from, say, early-2025 onwards would mean an additional 40-50 new/next-gen SSNs by the end of 2034. I don't think it is wrong to have 40-50 new/next-gen SSNs that can credibly threaten US&LC warships and bases/installations that are farther away from home (i.e. 2IC, 3IC and the Indian Ocean), especially based on the presently (or soon to be) available capability which can enable such prospects into reality. If anything - Would Beijing prefer to intercept and disrupt the enemy forces' advances much farther away from home, or is Beijing content with doing so only when they're much closer if not right on China's doorstep?

There's also the need to consider that not every single SSN would be able to be on-station at once, as some of them must go through replenishment, maintenance and refueling at any given time. This means the actual number of SSNs that are available for combat duty at any given time is actually lower than what the total number of SSNs in the fleet tends to tell on paper. (And, to-be-fair, this is the same for just about any class and type of warships around the world.)

Plus, compared to have only 10-or-so underwater enemy threats to deal with, imagine having to deal with multiple 10s of them.

And then, there is China's nuclear deterrence capability to speak of. Apart from land-based (TELs, silos) and air-based (tactical/strategic bombers) deterrence, sea-based deterrence (submarines) should also be receive more attention, especially in light of China's recent rapid nuclear arsenal buildup.

That means more SSBNs being built = More SSBNs that can conduct deterrence patrol at any given time = More SSBNs that can survive enemy actions during wartime = More vectors of which the enemy homeland can be attacked from = More nukes that can be thrown at enemy cities in case sh1t truly hits the fan.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
It was much cheaper for the Soviets to build a large submarine fleet than to compete with the West in surface ships. The submarines were supposed to allow cutting supply of Europe by the US in case of a NATO-Warsaw Pact confrontation.

Most nuclear submarines they had were the Victor class. This was a highly successful design, serial produced, and relatively cheap for what it was.

While there were more expensive projects I would not say this was a major cause of the Soviet downfall. Without the attack submarines they would have had to engage in a much more costly surface fleet building program. Without the strategic submarines they would have to build more expensive land based facilities.
 
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davidau

Senior Member
Registered Member
It was much cheaper for the Soviets to build a large submarine fleet than to compete with the West in surface ships. The submarines were supposed to allow cutting supply of Europe by the US in case of a NATO-Warsaw Pact confrontation.

Most nuclear submarines they had were the Victor class. This was a highly successful design, serial produced, and relatively cheap for what it was.

While there were more expensive projects I would not say this was a major cause of the Soviet downfall. Without the attack submarines they would have had to engage in a much more costly surface fleet building program. Without the strategic submarines they would have to build more expensive land based facilities.
are these comments relevant to China's 093/094??
 
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