09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[Blitzo]

China has modern integral reactor designs. Take the ACP100 for example.

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That reactor has a similar power level to the RITM-400 the Russians designed to use in the Leader icebreaker and the nuclear carriers.
A reactor half that size with similar technology could be used in a nuclear submarine. They would just need to increase the refueling cycle to 10 years.

This should not have been posted, because now you'll have to justify relating these reactors with the idea that they can be utilized or are relevant to nuclear submarine appropriate reactors.

The argument overall would be far stronger by just saying that Chinese nuclear reactor propulsion has likely advanced in the multiple decades since the original 09III pair were first designed and produced and to just leave it at that.

Considering a very limited space on 093 and 094, is ACP100 suitable for those?, I read the ACP100 SMR and it seems the dimension is quite large, of course a lot smaller than ACP1400

See above.

None of us have any knowledge as to what the exact types of nuclear submarine relevant reactors are for the current and forthcoming generation of Chinese nuclear submarines, however given the pace of overall PRC industry and other nuclear advancement it would be reasonable to surmise that their nuclear propulsion adjacent industries have also advanced.

 

[gelgoog]

The technology is similar to other modern naval reactors. It has integral design. The steam generators are built-in the reactor. The main difference it doesn't use as enriched fuel as a submarine typically would to increase density and reduce time between refuelings. And yes a submarine reactor would be half the size I said as much. But that would not be much of a modification. They also had an ACP50 and ACP25 in the roadmap.

China should have the technology to make a modern naval nuclear reactor. It is as simple as that. I would not be surprised if these Type 093B submarines already have such a reactor and are being used as technology testbeds for a future Type 095.

 

[Dante80]

The technology is similar to other modern naval reactors.

No, it is not. Military naval reactors are very particular beasts. Especially when talking about sub reactors.

China should have the technology to make a modern naval nuclear reactor. It is as simple as that.

Yes.

 

[gelgoog]

The technology is basically the same. In Russia all these reactors are designed by OKBM Afrikantov. The exact same company which designs the submarine reactors. Their technology base and design are very similar.

The Chinese ACP100 reactors have integral construction with built-in steam generators. So they are highly compact.


They have a high degree of natural circulation. Same parameters as a quiet modern naval reactor used in a submarine.



There were smaller versions planned which would fit into a submarine.



The Russian RITM-200 reactor depending on the fuel configuration can have either 2 year refueling period or 10 year refueling period. Not coincidentally the same refueling period used in their submarines. For example the Russians are right now refueling the Yury Dolgorukiy SSBN which entered service roughly a decade ago.

 

[broadsword]

The technology is basically the same. In Russia all these reactors are designed by OKBM Afrikantov. The exact same company which designs the submarine reactors. Their technology base and design are very similar.

The Chinese ACP100 reactors have integral construction with built-in steam generators. They have a high degree of natural circulation on the reactor core. Same parameters as a modern naval reactor used in a submarine.

The Russian RITM-200 reactor depending on the fuel configuration can have either 2 year refueling period or 10 years refueling period. Not coincidentally the same refueling period used in their submarines.

The one at Shidaowan does not look small. It looks like it occupies at least a football field.

 

[gelgoog]

ACP100 is twice or four times the power of the one you would put into a submarine (ACP50 or ACP25). And you would not use the same kind of supporting infrastructure.

An ACP50 would be roughly the same power as you would need for a Project 885M submarine. That is 14000 tons submerged. Current Chinese submarines are half that displacement at like 7000 tons submerged. So if you wanted to put a reactor on a Type 093 it would be of same power as an ACP25.

The ACP25 was the reactor design CNNC started with. Coincidence?

My guess is, they already designed and built the smaller submarine reactor using this technology a long time ago, and this civilian 100/125 MWe design scaleup is a way for them to finance the development of a larger prototype to eventually build larger surface naval reactors including the ones for the nuclear carrier. As a bonus they get an SMR design for export to compete against Western and Russian SMRs.

It is highly unlikely we will know the exact details of the submarine reactor any time soon. I think these civilian reactors are the closest you can get into having a glimpse of the submarine reactor technology they use.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

A new article on Huludao's expansion and capabilities

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Does anyone know where the author gets the dates for SSN launches in the past couple years? The source in the article just links back to this thread lmao

Just a few comments.

One - The table which listed the different times at which individual 093B SSN units were launched has one error. Not because of the latest (i.e. 7th) 093B SSN launch which has been (understandably) left out, but the years for the last two launches should be 2024, not 2023. A novice mistake:



Hence, once proper updates and amendments are made, the table should look like this (as of early-September 2024):

Unit No.	Launch Month	Interval Between Launches (in Months)
01	May 2022	N/A
02	January 2023	7.5
03	July 2023	5.5
04	October 2023	3.5
05	February/March 2024	4
06	July 2023	4
07	August 2024	1-1.5

Two - Speaking of the estimated number of submarine building bays that is available at the 2nd phase section of Bohai Shipyard - Here's most probably where they got the idea from (courtesy of @Blitzo):



Thirdly - Now I am really wondering what's going on in the area located directly north of Huludao's 2nd phase section (circled in orange, screenshot from Baidu Maps):



There has been growing intensity of construction activities in the circled area. Noticeably, there is a small drydock-shaped structure (labelled #1), a much larger drydock-shaped structure (labelled #2) and at least one large-sized overhead crane typically seen in shipyards (labelled #3):



So is this area meant to be an entirely separate shipyard entity that is unrelated to Huludao, or will this area be Huludao's brand-new 3rd phase of expansion?

 

[tphuang]

The article was probably written some time ago, so I wouldn't be surprised if a more recent launch was simply not incorporated due to the time when it was submitted for publication and the time of publication.

It has a couple of weird parts to it but overall it's quite an impressive summary, and makes me wonder where they've been reading to inform their output.




When was "miniaturization" of nuclear reactor technology specifically a bottleneck?
I assume you meant to write "nuclear propulsion" in general rather than specifically focusing on miniaturization.

Remember that we had this conversation maybe 2 years ago when the first one was launched and the expectations were that they'd have 8 launched by 2025. Looks like they are well on that schedule. The question at the time is if they will stop at 8 or order second batch. I would guess latter at this point because then the work force will be idle there. Also, they just need more reasonably capable nuclear submarine even if they are not at VA class in performance.

 

[BoraTas]

Remember that we had this conversation maybe 2 years ago when the first one was launched and the expectations were that they'd have 8 launched by 2025. Looks like they are well on that schedule. The question at the time is if they will stop at 8 or order second batch. I would guess latter at this point because then the work force will be idle there. Also, they just need more reasonably capable nuclear submarine even if they are not at VA class in performance.

I believe the same too. Idling the workforce would be a weird choice. So I believe there are three possibles which all involve the nuclear-powered sub construction ongoing.

1- There are more 093Bs in the pipeline
2- The 095s are being built in numbers already. We will see an output of 2-3 095s annually, starting with late-2025.
3- There are 094Bs in the pipeline

 

[Blitzo]

Remember that we had this conversation maybe 2 years ago when the first one was launched and the expectations were that they'd have 8 launched by 2025. Looks like they are well on that schedule. The question at the time is if they will stop at 8 or order second batch. I would guess latter at this point because then the work force will be idle there. Also, they just need more reasonably capable nuclear submarine even if they are not at VA class in performance.

I wouldn't say the question was even about a second batch, but rather just continued SSN production.

Continued SSN production could include another batch of 09IIIBs, or 09Vs, or both.


That said I would exercise some prudent caution as to whether they have actually launched 7 09IIIBs up to this point, simply because the satellite pictures we have of the last 4-5 hulls are not conclusive but poor quality and somewhat circumstantial.
If they have launched 7 09IIIBs up to now, then certainly at this stage I wouldn't be surprised if they've started spinning up 09V production and/or further 09IIIB production as well as SSBN production by now.

None of that is too strange, it would have some parallels to the way that they spun up production of four 052C hulls from 2010 for a couple of years slowly before 052D and 055 production both started spinning up as well.