09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

thunderchief

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To be honest, I agree - I don't think the CNC is that much of an issue.

Let's put it like this, Soviets didn't have any, and when they got some via Toshiba-Kongsberg scandal, Victor III class subs become much quitter then Victor II and I subs . There is no much difference between Victor III and Victor II in terms of machinery, biggest difference is propeller (two four-bladed instead of one seven-bladed) .

By now, Chinese industry is significantly advanced to manufacture propellers of same quality as those on Victor III . In terms of machinery , I doubt China could not match Soviet technology from 60s and 70s .
 

broadsword

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There is no much difference between Victor III and Victor II in terms of machinery, biggest difference is propeller (two four-bladed instead of one seven-bladed) .

The difference is in noise among others. According to FAS
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An improved version of the Victor II, the Victor III was an interim effort to apply some level of silencing to their submarines. The hull was lengthened by nearly 20 feet to accommodate the rafting and sound insulation for the turbine machinery. The design also features improvements in electronics, navigation systems, and radio and satellite communication systems, accomodated in the additional hull space forward of the sail.
 

Jeff Head

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I don't think so. The submarines of the soviets become much more silent in the 80ies of the last centuary, because they got advanced CNC machines from Toshiba and Kongsberg (Toshiba-Kongsberg scandal) to make the propellers.
That helped principally with their propeller design and reduction in cavitation and other noise generated by it.

The nuclear rectors, the other machinery within the vessel, and other issues also contribute to noise. All of them have to be addressed.

As I say, the Chinese are advancing, but there are several fronts they are working on to catch up and CNC is just one of these. So while the first Type 093s progressed over the Type 091s, the Chionese clearly flt they needed to do better and came out with a Mod on the Type 093.

Now they are moving further forward with the Type 095.

They want to make progress...but they also want to field some capability (the nest they can), and so we will see them continue to produce various classes until they believe they are approaching a peer status...then I expect to see them produce quite a few of whatever class that is.
 
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tphuang

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Where did you get that ? For example, even those who downplay PLAN capabilities claim that 093 is equal to Victor III
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I read that blog entry just now and I have no clue how it came up with this part.
The upgrades done to the Type 093 SSNs focused on the instalment of a vertical launch systems as well as the capability to fire the YJ-18 anti-ship cruise missiles. The instalment of a vertical launch system on board of the Type 093 gives the PLAN the same capabilities as US Navy Los Angeles class submarines. In general, the new Type 093 SSNs are now comparable to the Los Angeles class submarines of the 1980s.

As for where did I get 093 being loud. That came from the 2009 ONI report on the noise level of Chinese and Soviet nuclear submarines. And also USN have openly said how they've been able to track Chinese submarines from really far out. China waited a long time before building the new 093 mods after stopping the production run of the original 093s at 2 units.
 

tphuang

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You did not mentioned in your blog but what is your opinion on the following that supposedly is already factored into the design and development of the type 093/094 and reasons given why some China-watchers feel that it has reached improved Los Angeles acoustic level :
(i)That China Ship Scientific Research Centre has already developed relatively advanced guide vane propeller and that seven blade propeller with cruciform vortex dissipaters is already installed in the indigenous Song class and hence likely on the 093/094;
(ii)Research at Qingdao's 4808 Factory already has demonstrated sound isolation couplings to the circulation pump of fresh water system within the steam cycle;
(iii) Achievement in advanced composites materials in absorbing vibration and sound; and
(iv) Successful breakthrough in high-temperature gas-cooled reactor in propulsion .
For iv), I don't see any evidence that pebble bed reactor is used as propulsion other than internet speculations. Timelines just have no way of working. Even for 095, the reactor work probably would've been completed a few years ago. I'm not technologically proficient enough to know if pebble bed reactor could work on a nuclear submarine. But there is no indication at this point, they have developed pebble bed reactor that could work with a nuclear sub. It seems like domestically they are going through a lot of advances in conventional reactors and it would be far easier to go with that.
As for propeller technology, I think that's only part of the noise level. The majority of noise still comes from within the inner hull .
And i'm sure they have made a lot of advances in noise isolation, but the first 2 093s were built in the late 90s/early 2000s, which was only 10 years after the last 091. The submarines themselves didn't get much larger and beam might be even less based on my GE measurements. They probably had to dedicate more space for propulsion unit and safety to allow 093s to operate over longer endurance. At the same time, more space was needed to install flank array sonars and such. So 093s most likely had less space available inside inner hull for active/passive noise cancellation technology while having to deal with more noise making parts and higher speed requirements. I think the improvement in Chinese shipyards and industrial technology have been more evident in the 10 to 15 years since the first 093s were laid down. So optimistically speaking, the new 093s and the next generation 095s would have much greater improvement in stealth.
By now, Chinese industry is significantly advanced to manufacture propellers of same quality as those on Victor III . In terms of machinery , I doubt China could not match Soviet technology from 60s and 70s .
I agree Chinese machinery and industrial capabilities are much greater than Soviet 70s technology. My point was just that the original design of 093 was not stealthy. And also that Victor III got quieter in the later build with improved Soviet shipbuilding and access to more advanced tooling. Now, the 2 093s were probably built in the late 90s and early 2000s at Huludao shipyard, which is not the most commercially advanced shipyard. China has gone through huge improvement since that time in every aspect of submarine shipbuilding. I would expect the most recent builds with the modifications they have made to be a lot quieter. But we won't find out until more information comes out.
 

thunderchief

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The difference is in noise among others. According to FAS
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And why do you assume that China could not employ same sound dampening techniques Soviets used in 80s on Victor III ?

As for where did I get 093 being loud. That came from the 2009 ONI report on the noise level of Chinese and Soviet nuclear submarines. And also USN have openly said how they've been able to track Chinese submarines from really far out. China waited a long time before building the new 093 mods after stopping the production run of the original 093s at 2 units.

Every navy (and armed forces in general) likes to overplay its capabilities in public, and hides its weaknesses . USN claims it could detect foreign subs from far away , Russians and Chinese (now French) claim they could pop up in the middle of carrier group . We had that incident with Russian Victor III sub in 1996, Ming or Song incident (in 2006. ???) etc ... Truth is usually somewhere in the middle .

I agree Chinese machinery and industrial capabilities are much greater than Soviet 70s technology. My point was just that the original design of 093 was not stealthy. And also that Victor III got quieter in the later build with improved Soviet shipbuilding and access to more advanced tooling. Now, the 2 093s were probably built in the late 90s and early 2000s at Huludao shipyard, which is not the most commercially advanced shipyard. China has gone through huge improvement since that time in every aspect of submarine shipbuilding. I would expect the most recent builds with the modifications they have made to be a lot quieter. But we won't find out until more information comes out.

There is nothing inherently unstealthy with Type 093 to be louder then Victor III . Victor III is technology from 80's , first Type 093 subs were laid down in late 90's (or more likely in early 2000's ) . By that time, China had ample opportunity to absorb some of Soviet know-how, and to invent something on their own . And I'm not even talking about improved Type 093 , with even more time to improve acoustic properties .
 

tphuang

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And why do you assume that China could not employ same sound dampening techniques Soviets used in 80s on Victor III ?

Every navy (and armed forces in general) likes to overplay its capabilities in public, and hides its weaknesses . USN claims it could detect foreign subs from far away , Russians and Chinese (now French) claim they could pop up in the middle of carrier group . We had that incident with Russian Victor III sub in 1996, Ming or Song incident (in 2006. ???) etc ... Truth is usually somewhere in the middle .

There is nothing inherently unstealthy with Type 093 to be louder then Victor III . Victor III is technology from 80's , first Type 093 subs were laid down in late 90's (or more likely in early 2000's ) . By that time, China had ample opportunity to absorb some of Soviet know-how, and to invent something on their own . And I'm not even talking about improved Type 093 , with even more time to improve acoustic properties .
The song sub surfaced because it knew it was in trouble. The 2 093s were launched by 2002/3, so they would've been launched late 90s at Huludao shipyard. Which is not known for being the most technologically capable. The design for it would have started a few years before that. I don't think China absorbed most of the stuff from the Russians until probably mid 2000s.
 
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