09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
Thanks to @tamsen_ikard's quoting, I had a quick look back to the posts discussing Patch and Rick's podcast from mid-December last year, and I would like to inquire on this:


Because it seems related to what I stumbled upon this photograph, which is posted by @西葛西造舰 just an hour ago:
View attachment 108924

Notice how torn-up that boat (likely a Virginia SSN) is?

Is this normal in the USN? Does this also happen to Chinese SSNs? Wouldn't deterioration of the tiles or coatings on this SSN's hull of such a massive degree be seriously detrimental to its stealth capability?

TBH, I'm genuinely shocked by the look of this.
USN's forward deployment is the root cause of this. Forward deployment has some benefits like being able to react more rapidly and diplomatic cookie points with allies. But it is an absurdly expensive practice the US arguably can't sustain anymore with sorry states of its shipbuilding industry and naval procurement. These are just symptoms:

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(USCG is getting involved because the navy is getting ruined)
 

para80

Junior Member
Registered Member
Forward deployment is NOT the root cause of the anechoic tile peeling on Virginia class. Its a changed application from previous tiling used eg on 688/(i) boats and Seawolf, and it has been an issue nearly from "day one". Some boats had this issue already showing up within months when they were still PCU (not commissioned). USN had been working on a fix since at least 2010.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Thanks to @tamsen_ikard's quoting, I had a quick look back to the posts discussing Patch and Rick's podcast from mid-December last year, and I would like to inquire on this:


Because it seems related to what I stumbled upon this photograph, which is posted by @西葛西造舰 just an hour ago:
View attachment 108924

Notice the top surface of the boat (likely a Virginia SSN).

Is this a normal occurrence on SSNs? Does this also happen to Chinese SSNs? Wouldn't deterioration of the tiles or coatings on this SSN's hull of such a massive degree be seriously detrimental to its stealth capability?

TBH, I'm genuinely shocked by the look of this.

yeahhh, definitely lacking of maintenance
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Is this a normal occurrence on SSNs? Does this also happen to Chinese SSNs? Wouldn't deterioration of the tiles or coatings on this SSN's hull of such a massive degree be seriously detrimental to its stealth capability?

Old anechoic layer was placed as tiles fixed to the hull. New anechoic layer used on Virginia is a continuous mold. This has consequences when hull is deforms during change of pressure.

Every time the sub dives the hull is compressed by water which causes a non-neglible change in size. When it surfaces the hull expands to match atmospheric pressure. While the change of size is not significant the forces that act on the hull and consequently on the anechoic layer fixed to it are tremendous as they are a derivative of the pressure differential. So it is very much like an earthquake on the surface of the hull or a "hull-quake" if you will.

When the hull with tiles is deformed the tiles move independently of each other and often are compressed against each other this - coupled with effect of seawater - causes them to fall off individually after some time. Once an opening in the layer is created more tiles fall off because water puts pressure on the other tiles from their exposed side. But because the tiles are fixed individually to spots on the hull they don't fall off on their own. There needs to be mechanical stress and chemical interaction to get them loose. This is how you get images like this one:


ssn sovreign.jpg

When a hull with molded layer like Virginia deforms the anechoic material doesn't break because it's continuous but it deforms differently from the steel of the hull and begins to peel off from it without breaking its structure. Once that happens then over time due to differences in pressure, temperature, salinity etc the material develops microcracks around the spots where it disconnects from the hull and then water gets inside and it peels off in huge chunks like a blister.

virginia anechoic damage.jpg

To use biological analogy it's like scales vs skin.

The new technology gives better results on quieting and when done properly stays on the hull longer but when it goes bad it goes bad and is harder and more expensive to replace adding extra time in dock. However I don't think this is the main issue affecting USN submarine readiness and repair time.

From what I've read in official reports the main problem seems to be simply availability of slots due to limited funding. Tools and crews cost money and if USN doesn't pay for them they won't be available on demand. There is also competition for existing funds. Many repairs are done in shipyards other than Groton and Newport and those two already complain about underfunding and inability to increase production rate of Virginias. Columbia has priority so new funding is re-directed there. Boats like USS Boisie which is a 688i commissioned in 1992 simply are not a priority. USS Annapolis from 1992 is slated for retirement in 2027. Boisie isn't probably because all those years in the dock have saved some service life.

Comparing USN's situation to PLAN's is really not constructive because PLAN has active small fleet and expands the infrastructure to match its fleet expansion plans. USN has not enough boats for what its missions are which causes them to be overworked and the infrastructure has been cut to preserve the fleet when budget cuts hit. Still INSURV rates SSNs as highest in condition and readiness while the rest of the fleet fails even more.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Should have been expected anyway. The West wants to choke China to death with an expanding underwater fleet, yet somehow believe that China would not respond in kind? Just give it up.


Although, worthy of note being that Beijing has been planning for the eventual surge in submarine construction for years. On the other hand, AUKUS will serve as a timely booster inside the PLA CMC for demanding even larger budgets to address AUKUS.

Speaking of which, China currently has around ~9 SSNs and ~8 SSBNs in active service (excluding 091 and 092s). The 14th Five-Year Plan (2021-2025) will add another ~9 SSNs and ~2 SSBNs to the PLAN underwater fleet, i.e. ~18 SSNs and ~10 SSBNs in total.

Hopefully China will double the number for the SSBNs and triple the number for the SSNs in the next one or two Five-Year Plan(s) - As part of an (indirect) response package to AUKUS.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
China's fleet construction seems to be mostly reactive. They basically try to keep parity with the US and its allies in the Pacific.
There was, and still is, a huge disparity in terms of nuclear attack submarines. Which China is bound to try to address. Something which HI Sutton prefers to ignore with his claims about AUKUS being used as a red herring.
 

Lime

Junior Member
Registered Member
Should have been expected anyway. The West wants to choke China to death with an expanding underwater fleet, yet somehow believe that China would not respond in kind?


Although, worthy of note being that Beijing has been planning for the eventual surge in submarine construction for years. On the other hand, AUKUS will serve as a timely booster inside the PLA CMC for demanding even larger budgets to address AUKUS.

Speaking of which, China currently has around ~9 SSNs and ~8 SSBNs (excluding 091 and 092s) in active service. The 14th Five-Year Plan (2021-2025) will add another ~9 SSNs and ~2 SSBNs to the PLAN underwater fleet, i.e. ~18 SSNs and ~10 SSBNs.

Hopefully China would double the number for the SSBNs and triple the number for the SSNs for the next one or two Five-Year Plan(s) - As part of the response package.
China of course will accelerate the production of SSN.
The 09IIIB is just a transitional model while 09V is a new model with the most advanced design like the 055.
The new SSN will compare to the US's most advanced SSN.
This is what I heard from someone said his parents are engineers. If you know the story of the design of 055, you can understand what he means.
 

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
China of course will accelerate the production of SSN.
The 09IIIB is just a transitional model while 09V is a new model with the most advanced design like the 055.
The new SSN will compare to the US's most advanced SSN.
This is what I heard from someone said his parents are engineers. If you know the story of the design of 055, you can understand what he means.
i have one question. hope someone answer me in details.

what about type 095 nuclear reactor and how's the performance of that newly designed reactor as compared to world leading submarines.

@tphuang sir..
 

Lime

Junior Member
Registered Member
i have one question. hope someone answer me in details.

what about type 095 nuclear reactor and how's the performance of that newly designed reactor as compared to world leading submarines.

@tphuang sir..
It is no doubt top secret. But definitely 09V will use a new power system.
some information from the man told me.
1. 09IIIB is just a transitional model. Though many new technology on it but it is more like experiment due to its dated power system.
2. PLAN focused on surface decade ago(mostly the new carrier) but now they have sufficient budget invest on submarine.
3. 09V will compare to the newest US SSN and will be built in large quantity.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
i have one question. hope someone answer me in details.

what about type 095 nuclear reactor and how's the performance of that newly designed reactor as compared to world leading submarines.

@tphuang sir..
well my theory is that they are using something like ACPR50S. I've talked about it before. Will be around 200 MW thermal in power and probably end up with well more than 30 MWe. I think the Chines reactor will be more powerful than the one used on Yasen class (in terms of actual electric power generated) and should have plenty of power for a 12m diameter sub even if they have a long VLS section.
 
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