09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

FIDEL de Chacal

New Member
Registered Member
I don't agree. China needs to be able to go on a submarine offensive beyond the first island chain. Chinese SSNs will be persistent threats. Have really good 30 SSNs and deploy 20 of them to the West Pacific before starting to conquer Taiwan. US planners will have to think a lot more times. Also, there is a chain effect. CVNs further away and less mobile -> more Chinese MPAs and ASW ships -> Less aggressive US SSNs -> A lot more PLAN warships -> even more area denial. SSKs can't do this effectively, it is not WW2 anymore.
This exactly , Agree.

Another way to look at, The Island of Taiwan(FIC) is basically the "Fulda Gap Of The West Pacific". Image all the water surrounding the First, Second, Third islands as "Land" and the many island as "Mountains and Hills" etc. Then the island of Taiwan would be the Vogelsberg Mountains(high ground), the waters off it's northeast coast and Yaeyama Islands as the northern route(choke point) and the Luzon Strait as the southern route(choke point).

The type 093Bs , 095s etc. fast attack boats would be/act as the PLAN's tank("SOVIET T-72/T-80s)" offensive spear(breakout) into the Second and beyond "before any special island operation" was to commence.

That's why I place more importance on the production of the type 093B boats and the future type 095s over additional type 094 SSBNs as I've stated before.

At "Sturgeon/LA/V3" current level performance

"a large missile(ASM/ASBM) force combined with a large surface force(destroyers/(cruisers) supported by carriers/frigates/SSKs) and a limited(current) number force of nuclear attack submarines(type 093/093As) keeps the USN out of the First islands(now 2022)"...

At "iLA/PIKE-M/SW/Yasen" or better future level performance

"a large missile(ASM/ASBM) force combined with a large surface force(destroyers/(cruisers) supported by carriers/frigates/SSKs) and a large force(50+) of fast attack nuclear submarines(type 093Bs/095s) keeps the USN at the International Date Line"...
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
This exactly , Agree.

Another way to look at, The Island of Taiwan(FIC) is basically the "Fulda Gap Of The West Pacific". Image all the water surrounding the First, Second, Third islands as "Land" and the many island as "Mountains and Hills" etc. Then the island of Taiwan would be the Vogelsberg Mountains(high ground), the waters off it's northeast coast and Yaeyama Islands as the northern route(choke point) and the Luzon Strait as the southern route(choke point).

The type 093Bs , 095s etc. fast attack boats would be/act as the PLAN's tank("SOVIET T-72/T-80s)" offensive spear(breakout) into the Second and beyond "before any special island operation" was to commence.

That's why I place more importance on the production of the type 093B boats and the future type 095s over additional type 094 SSBNs as I've stated before.

At "Sturgeon/LA/V3" current level performance

"a large missile(ASM/ASBM) force combined with a large surface force(destroyers/(cruisers) supported by carriers/frigates/SSKs) and a limited(current) number force of nuclear attack submarines(type 093/093As) keeps the USN out of the First islands(now 2022)"...

At "iLA/PIKE-M/SW/Yasen" or better future level performance

"a large missile(ASM/ASBM) force combined with a large surface force(destroyers/(cruisers) supported by carriers/frigates/SSKs) and a large force(50+) of fast attack nuclear submarines(type 093Bs/095s) keeps the USN at the International Date Line"...
In that context, moving into major SSN based fleet will be a similar move as 80s NATO moving from defensive doctrine in Europe to air land battle, able to push offensively against the USSR if needed.

SSKs are akin to the groups of tanks guarding the entrance into West Germany, here guarding the gate to mainland China that lies through Taiwan and the surrounding waters. But without SSNs to reach out into surrounding waters, defend the opening is all they can do.

With sufficient 095 introduced, China will be acquiring the ability to not just hold and defend against American waves, but strike out and disrupt their forces across the whole Pacific.
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
All true BUT SSKs are still eminently useful against countries without air supremacy and without constant MPA presence which just about describes every country around China except the Seventh Fleet. Just like the J-10/J-20 mix, adds quantity and affordability. SSKs free up home-sea duties and match up nicely against Japanese and Korean boats and more exportable. The patrol range of SSKs can also be extended with a few well-positions AA ships.

In the longer term, I question how useful SSNs will be if hydrogen fuel can be synthesized from sea water or why not refueling by AUVs?
This is also why I expect China to replace 056A corvettes at some point too. Most of the humankind lives in the periphery of China. There are hostile (Japan) and potentially hostile (SK and few SEA nations) entities in the said periphery too. So there will always be a need for assets that are short-range. I don't see China ditching away conventional subs. The new facility in Wuchang is proof of that. But I don't see the fleet growing or even staying at ~55 subs.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
There is no reduction of SSK production or shifting to SSNs. The two fleets are separate entities and their production is also managed separately.

Table of PLAN SSKs introduced to service by year:

PLAN SSK production 2001-2022.jpg

Only periods of significant buildup of conventional submarines occur in 2004-05 and 2011-12.

Table of PLAN SSKs in service currently from Wiki:

Dates are notional entry into service and date of retirement after 25 and 30 years of service.

PLAN SSK 2022.jpg

Assuming that many submarines have been used intensively and will be retired around 27-28 years like the two 877EKMs there are the following boats to be replaced:

636:
(1) 366 by 2024
(2) 367 by 2025
035B:
(3) 310, (4) 311, (5) 312, (6) 313 by 2026 due to obsolescence
039:
(7) 320 by 2026
039G:
(8) 321, (8) 322 by 2028

Additionally there are reportedly some 035 kept in reserve which means that additional boats might be released from service early to replace those obsolete submarines from reserve. That could be another 6 submarines at minimum, most likely the 039G/G1 but possibly 636M due to maintenance economy. Together it gives 14 submarines to be replaced.

At 2 submarines per year there are additional 14-16 submarines in 2023-2030 to be produced. The data doesn't support any greater expansion of the SSK fleet at present. The only justification for expansion of SSK fleet would be establishment of overseas naval bases in countries that don't have their own SSK fleets. For example: a strategically important base in Pakistan doesn't need to be covered by PLAN SSKs because it makes more sense to lease or sell Chinese design at attractive price and develop an allied SSK force that is fully integrated into the maintenance economy allowing it to be augmented by PLAN boats i.e. exactly what's being done currently.

SSKs have their roles in mixed nuclear/conventional fleets and they remain identical based on historical precedent: Soviet, British, French and even US.

Drones won't be able to replace crewed submarines due to difficulty of networking underwater. Drones won't have sufficient decision autonomy to operate on their own approximately for the next 20 years because it's not just the question of handling the environment but also the threats in the environment. A surface ASW asset or a crewed submarine with AI augmentation will always beat a drone but there might be threshold where the drone can perform a number of missions instead of a submarine regardless of external threats. That won't happen before 20 years because it also requires data to be gathered for training and testing.

Currently drones are not at a stage where they can reliably augment SSKs let alone replace them. The production of crewed submarines is therefore reduced not because of drones but because of operational requirement (see data). 45 submarines is a lot and numbers alone don't win, especially that attacking force needs advantage in enemy waters where they face ASW so for illustrative purposes assume that 45 defending submarines can hold off 67 (1,5x) or 90 (2x) enemy submarines excluding any factors of logistics of operations away from own bases.

And that's assuming that it will be a highly unlikely scenario of submarine vs submarine/ASW warfare. In reality - and as I regularly remind you - submarines do not fight other submarines unless it becomes a viable option during an operation. Submarines fight surface assets so no fighting will take place unless there's two full fleets contesting an area. The primary weapon against submarine is a surface or aerial ASW asset, not another submarine. And why? Because of risk calculus. Damaged submarines at depth are much more vulnerable than damaged or even sinking surface ships. The task force can still coordinate and conduct ASW operations and perform a rescue at the same time. A damaged submarine in an area of ASW operation is a dead submarine.

This is to end speculation about SSKs in a SSN/SSBN thread.

Nuclear submarines are an entirely different problem because nuclear submarines operate on different scales of distance and time. There is no direct transition from one type to another. It's like a cruiser with an enlarged helo deck vs full aircraft carrier.

Similarly there's no real reason for China to develop a cruise missile variant of 094. Ohio SSGNs were just means of keeping four nuclear subs in service to keep spending money on them. There is very little use for such vessel in a peer conflict. It's too many (168) missiles in a single hull risking detection. It's better to spread the payload like in Virginia Block V or Yasen. Alternatively a more flexible payload allowing for cruise and ballistic missiles in one hull is preferable.

Once 096 replaces 094 the old SSBNs might get a refit but I'd expect them to be refit into something similar to Jimmy Carter or Russian subs Podmoskovye (ex-Delta IV) and Orenburg (ex-Delta III) or underwater drone carriers like Belgorod (ex-Oscar II). Nuclear propulsion gives advantages that are much better spent in other areas than excessive Tomahawk volleys and that role will only grow in prominence during peacetime as other regions of the world develop economically. Cold War happened at a time when the world was largely unchanged from late 19th century. US-China conflict will happen at a time that will more resemble late 17th/18th century. This shift in geoeconomic environment will change the nature of maritime competition and warfare.

Another way to look at, The Island of Taiwan(FIC) is basically the "Fulda Gap Of The West Pacific".

Before you try at using metaphors or analogies make sure that you understand what they mean in original context.

"Fulda Gap" is a propaganda creation because of US forces presence at that area. The main Soviet push has always been through north of Germany where British, Dutch and Belgian forces were stationed. Americans typically for their disgustingly narcissistic culture only think of themselves regardless of whether their role was central to an event or not, and you copy it instinctively thinking that it's factual when in reality it's a form of cultural delusion.

There's nothing remotely similar between German front during the Cold War and the First Island Chain / Mainland front in West Pacific. German front mattered because Germany itself was a 300km area of highly industrialized territory with increasingly valuable economic output, and right next to it were the Benelux countries and north of France. The entire economic foundation of Western Europe, underpinning much of post-WW2 American economic growth was vulnerable to a successful ground offensive without similar threat to the Warsaw Pact economies. An attack against Europe made sense because it was an indirect attack at US economy because that's where the expansion of the dollar system was taking place during and after Bretton Woods.

The conflict in West Pac will be different because the geography is different but also because the economy is different.
 

FIDEL de Chacal

New Member
Registered Member
Before you try at using metaphors or analogies make sure that you understand what they mean in original context.

"Fulda Gap" is a propaganda creation because of US forces presence at that area. The main Soviet push has always been through north of Germany where British, Dutch and Belgian forces were stationed. Americans typically for their disgustingly narcissistic culture only think of themselves regardless of whether their role was central to an event or not, and you copy it instinctively thinking that it's factual when in reality it's a form of cultural delusion.

There's nothing remotely similar between German front during the Cold War and the First Island Chain / Mainland front in West Pacific. German front mattered because Germany itself was a 300km area of highly industrialized territory with increasingly valuable economic output, and right next to it were the Benelux countries and north of France. The entire economic foundation of Western Europe, underpinning much of post-WW2 American economic growth was vulnerable to a successful ground offensive without similar threat to the Warsaw Pact economies. An attack against Europe made sense because it was an indirect attack at US economy because that's where the expansion of the dollar system was taking place during and after Bretton Woods.

The conflict in West Pac will be different because the geography is different but also because the economy is different.
Respectfully , You read past/missed my point when I made that statement. The "Fulda Gap Of The West Pacific" was my "metaphor". A "metaphor" is making a comparison between two or more things when there's no similarity but how they could be similar. Also a "metaphor" is not to be taken "literally". So yes your right there's nothing similar between the "Fulda Gap" and the Island of Taiwan(FIC). But I wasn't making an "analogy" that the two were the same context... hence I said "Another way to look at it"...

I could rephrase it , "The Island of Taiwan is the linchpin of the First Island Chain for US Strategy against the PRC" and that the Type 093B and 095s boats are the PRC power tools.(Again a metaphors)

metaphors , analogies , propaganda or strategies aside the Type 093B and eventually Type 095 boats will be(are) very important platforms going forward and that the PRC/PLAN should build lots of them.

I'm onboard with you regarding Type 094s
, I suggested a post back that when the type 096s come online that the remaining Type 094s should be converted into SSGNs armed with a sub launch variant of the YJ-21 or hypersonic ASM , Like the canceled Project 667M "Yankee SSGN or into "mother droneships"
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
There is no reduction of SSK production or shifting to SSNs. The two fleets are separate entities and their production is also managed separately.

Assuming that many submarines have been used intensively and will be retired around 27-28 years like the two 877EKMs there are the following boats to be replaced:

636:
(1) 366 by 2024
(2) 367 by 2025
035B:
(3) 310, (4) 311, (5) 312, (6) 313 by 2026 due to obsolescence
039:
(7) 320 by 2026
039G:
(8) 321, (8) 322 by 2028

Additionally there are reportedly some 035 kept in reserve which means that additional boats might be released from service early to replace those obsolete submarines from reserve. That could be another 6 submarines at minimum, most likely the 039G/G1 but possibly 636M due to maintenance economy. Together it gives 14 submarines to be replaced.

At 2 submarines per year there are additional 14-16 submarines in 2023-2030 to be produced. The data doesn't support any greater expansion of the SSK fleet at present. The only justification for expansion of SSK fleet would be establishment of overseas naval bases in countries that don't have their own SSK fleets. For example: a strategically important base in Pakistan doesn't need to be covered by PLAN SSKs because it makes more sense to lease or sell Chinese design at attractive price and develop an allied SSK force that is fully integrated into the maintenance economy allowing it to be augmented by PLAN boats i.e. exactly what's being done currently.

SSKs have their roles in mixed nuclear/conventional fleets and they remain identical based on historical precedent: Soviet, British, French and even US.

Drones won't be able to replace crewed submarines due to difficulty of networking underwater. Drones won't have sufficient decision autonomy to operate on their own approximately for the next 20 years because it's not just the question of handling the environment but also the threats in the environment. A surface ASW asset or a crewed submarine with AI augmentation will always beat a drone but there might be threshold where the drone can perform a number of missions instead of a submarine regardless of external threats. That won't happen before 20 years because it also requires data to be gathered for training and testing.

Currently drones are not at a stage where they can reliably augment SSKs let alone replace them. The production of crewed submarines is therefore reduced not because of drones but because of operational requirement (see data). 45 submarines is a lot and numbers alone don't win, especially that attacking force needs advantage in enemy waters where they face ASW so for illustrative purposes assume that 45 defending submarines can hold off 67 (1,5x) or 90 (2x) enemy submarines excluding any factors of logistics of operations away from own bases.

And that's assuming that it will be a highly unlikely scenario of submarine vs submarine/ASW warfare. In reality - and as I regularly remind you - submarines do not fight other submarines unless it becomes a viable option during an operation. Submarines fight surface assets so no fighting will take place unless there's two full fleets contesting an area. The primary weapon against submarine is a surface or aerial ASW asset, not another submarine. And why? Because of risk calculus. Damaged submarines at depth are much more vulnerable than damaged or even sinking surface ships. The task force can still coordinate and conduct ASW operations and perform a rescue at the same time. A damaged submarine in an area of ASW operation is a dead submarine.

This is to end speculation about SSKs in a SSN/SSBN thread.

Nuclear submarines are an entirely different problem because nuclear submarines operate on different scales of distance and time. There is no direct transition from one type to another. It's like a cruiser with an enlarged helo deck vs full aircraft carrier.
Well, I think we are on the same with some differences. Even though SSKs and SSNs operate at different time and distance scales they do the same job against the same adversaries. Submarines are primarily ship sinkers. Everything else is secondary or just an excuse for requesting more money. From your other posts, I think we are on the same page regarding this one too.

Also every single piece of military equipment from a pistol bullet to an aircraft carrier draws from the same national budget. If the operations near the coast are losing their importance for a country then it makes sense for them to procure fewer SSKs but more SSNs. This is why I think China will deprioritize the SSK fleet. Just like you, I don't foresee any expansions. I think we will see some little contraction too.


Similarly there's no real reason for China to develop a cruise missile variant of 094. Ohio SSGNs were just means of keeping four nuclear subs in service to keep spending money on them. There is very little use for such vessel in a peer conflict. It's too many (168) missiles in a single hull risking detection. It's better to spread the payload like in Virginia Block V or Yasen. Alternatively a more flexible payload allowing for cruise and ballistic missiles in one hull is preferable.
I agree. Land-attack cruise missiles on submarines is a very niche capability. It has very low bandwidth and is very expensive per launcher. They are only useful for early war salvo augmentation against places that are hard to reach because of enemy forces. Building dedicated cruise missile subs of SSBN proportions is a waste of industrial capacity. Just making your SSNs a bit longer is much better.
 

Maikeru

Major
Registered Member
Well, I think we are on the same with some differences. Even though SSKs and SSNs operate at different time and distance scales they do the same job against the same adversaries. Submarines are primarily ship sinkers. Everything else is secondary or just an excuse for requesting more money. From your other posts, I think we are on the same page regarding this one too.

Also every single piece of military equipment from a pistol bullet to an aircraft carrier draws from the same national budget. If the operations near the coast are losing their importance for a country then it makes sense for them to procure fewer SSKs but more SSNs. This is why I think China will deprioritize the SSK fleet. Just like you, I don't foresee any expansions. I think we will see some little contraction too.



I agree. Land-attack cruise missiles on submarines is a very niche capability. It has very low bandwidth and is very expensive per launcher. They are only useful for early war salvo augmentation against places that are hard to reach because of enemy forces. Building dedicated cruise missile subs of SSBN proportions is a waste of industrial capacity. Just making your SSNs a bit longer is much better.
Developing an SSGN ab initio is one thing but if you've got SSBN with plenty of pressure hull and reactor life left and for whatever reason (arms control treaty, better SSBN design) you no longer need them as SSBN, then makes sense to convert them to SSGN or spec ops or whatever. So I can see at least some 094s being re-rolled once sufficient 096s are in service to carry out the deterrent role.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Converting 094 SSBNs into SSGNs would never happen as long as 096 SSBNs are not in active service in sufficient numbers with the PLAN AND becoming the main underwater nuclear deterrence arm for China. We would have to wait for at least a decade or decade-&-half before that becomes a reality.

Depending on the construction speed and procurement rate of the 096s, we might even see 094s getting old enough for the PLAN to just retire them in their original SSBN form by the time 096s become available in sufficient numbers.

Furthermore, instead of converting 094 SSBNs into SSGNs, perhaps it would be better to just procure larger numbers of 095 SSNs, with every single 095 boat having large numbers of VLS tubes onboard instead? Having the option to equip certain portion of the 095 fleet with special missile launcher modules - similar to the Virginia Payload Module (VPM) - is also another viable alternative.

On the other hand, having a nuclear-powered submarine specifically fitted to direct and support spec-ops would require said submarine to be very quiet and stealthy, something I think that the 094 has yet to achieve compared to her American and Russian peers.
 
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MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Developing an SSGN ab initio is one thing but if you've got SSBN with plenty of pressure hull and reactor life left and for whatever reason (arms control treaty, better SSBN design) you no longer need them as SSBN, then makes sense to convert them to SSGN or spec ops or whatever. So I can see at least some 094s being re-rolled once sufficient 096s are in service to carry out the deterrent role.

Three remarks:

1. SSGN are a Soviet invention in response to unique Soviet needs.

They were initially designed as strategic land attack vessels due to limitations of ballistic missile technology and used the cumbersome P-5 Pyatyorka missile that required the sub to surface for 30 minutes for launch. There were also 16 convetional Juliett with four P-5 missiles built from 1960 as interim measure due to delays with Echo but they were abandoned as soon as nuclear propulsion became reliable.

When R-27 SLBM became available Soviet navy ordered Yankee-class SSBNs but the concept of nuclear-armed cruise missiles to combat US carrier groups was retained and SSGNs became anti-carrier submarines armed with specialized anti-ship missiles.
  • 5x Echo I (1958) - 6x P-5 (450km)
  • 29x Echo II (1961) - 8x P-6 (500km), later 14 converted to 8x P-500 (550km)
  • 1x Papa (1963) - 12x P-70 (60km)
  • 11x Charlie I (1964) - 8x P-70 (60km)
  • 6x Charlie II (1974) - 8x P-120 (70km)
  • 2x Oscar I (1975) - 24 P-700
  • 6x Oscar II (1982) - 24x P-700
  • total: 60 SSGNs
US never acquired SSGNs and only installed TLAM (Tomahawk Land Attack Missile) launchers in Los Angeles Flight II after 31 boats of Flight I were built. 8 Flight II and 23 Flight III (688i) boats were built each with 12 TLAM VLS in the bow section. The first 688 with VLS was ordered in 1979. By the end of the Cold War 31 VLS subs were built but all of them had tactical land attack function.

Virginia with VPM is not really an SSGN as it is a natural evolution of submarine warfare, similarly to what Yasen represents.

2. Ohio-style SSGN conversion is not effective in military terms but only in economic terms.

Ohio conversion was initially decided in 1994 and refit was done 2002 to 2008 at the cost of 700 million USD per boat (FY08). At the time the calculus of VLS tubes made it seem economical because Virginia had no modular launcher capacity and the cost of continuing service of 4 Ohio subs would bring financial benefit to the industry. Nuclear propulsion is an expensive and specialized field with low economies of scale and between 1992 and 2000 USN reduced half of its nuclear fleet.

in service:
  • 18x Ohio SSBN (1 reactor)
  • 62x Los Angeles SSN (1 reactor)
  • 2x Seawolf SSN (1 reactor)
  • 1x Enterprise CVN (8 reactors)
  • 8x Nimitz CVN (2 reactors) + 2 more after 2000
  • total: 91 hulls / 106 reactors
retired:
  • 10x James Madison SSBN (1 reactor)
  • 12x Benjamin Franklin SSBN (1 reactor)
  • 13x Permit SSN (1 reactor)
  • 36x Sturgeon SSN (1 reactor) + remaining 1 boat in 2005
  • 4x Virginia CGN (2 reactors)
  • 2x California CGN (2 reactors)
  • 1x Truxtun CGN (2 reactors)
  • 1x Long Beach CGN (2 reactors)
  • total: 79 hulls / 87 reactors
Always ensure that you have complete context because information out of context loses meaning.

Converted Ohio SSGN loses half of the volume of the missile compartment (Trident II - 13,6m x 2,1m vs Tomahawk - 6,5m x 0,5m). Ohio SSGNs were also a combined SSGN/Spec-Ops submarine able to carry both 154 TLAMs and up to 66 additional personnel housed in the refitted missile compartment. All those assets are placed in a single vessel that could be eliminated in a single anti-submarine operation but most importantly because of the "economy" refit and lack of technology for modular payloads Ohio SSGNs simply aren't flexible enough and can fulfill only that dual role - thus making it just an oversized Los Angeles/Virginia.

Ohio SSGN.jpg


For special purposes other submarines were used, notably the third Seawolf-class boat "Jimmy Carter" - note the length of hull added.

JimmyCarter_1000px.jpg

Ohio SSGNs make sense only in the context of a unique geopolitical situation of the time and are tools of colonial warfare and not a viable asset in a peer conflict. People who refuse to do the necessary thinking simply accept everything that exists at face value not realizing how much grift and graft is inherent in all military procurement, particularly once the military industrial complex is firmly established and has to undergo reductions.

3. SSBN to special purpose submarine conversion is effective in both military and economic terms.

There is a whole array of functions that a refitted SSBN can fill and Russia provides an excellent example of that. This is a graphic from HI Sutton's 2018 article. RussianShips.info lists two additional small submarines and "Belgorod" which is replacing "Orenburg".

Ru special submarines.jpg


It appears that Northern Fleet operates two large carrier submarines converted from SSBNs which act as moterships for smaller submarines or "nuclear-powered deep-diving stations" in Russian nomenclature. The conversion was extensive - both Delta SSBNs had their hump removed which indicates that an entire section was replaced - a much greater degree of intervention than the "cheap" Ohio conversion.

This is what Sutton suggests Belgorod may look like inside:

Ru_Belgorod_Schematic_1000px.jpg

Considering that Belgorod was orginally an Oscar class with two parallel inner hulls it makes sense that a SLBM section would be the minimum required for similar functionality.

Type 09IV is comparatively a small SSBN being ~20m shorter and displacing less than Delta III/IV and closer to Delta I/II and Benjamin Franklin classes. It could however be stretched during conversion, like "Jimmy Carter", particularly if instead of crewed mini-subs drones are used to greater extent.

The only question is level of noise that is acceptable for certain missions however considering that neither Delta III nor Delta IV are "quiet" submarines and they're being used regardless of constant persence of USN submarines in the Arctic.

As for the utility of such vessels - anything that has application in the Arctic will have greater application in the Pacific. The distances and depths are greater so underwater/seabed infrastructure plays a much greater role. Considering that China's interests in the future will extend to the Arctic as well I would see a minimum of four special carrier submarines to field two ready vessels - one for North Pacific/Arctic and one for South Pacific. Any such operations in Indian and Atlantic ocean are probably an issue for farther future.

Ohio SSBNs were laid down in:
  • 1976 - 1
  • 1977 - 1
  • 1979 - 1
  • 1981 - 3
  • 1983 - 2
  • 1986 - 2
  • 1987 - 3
  • 1988 - 1
  • 1990 - 1
  • 1991 - 1
  • 1992 - 1
Boats 1-4 (1976-81) took 5 years to make, boats 5-8 (1981-83) took 3 years and boats 9-10 (1986-87) took only 2 years. The remaining boats were built at slower pace of 4 to 6 years. The point I'm making is that once mass production is prepared and implemented after the first few boats it is achievable to build the necessary 12 SSBNs within approximately a decade. This means that Type 09VI could take much less time than usually is assumed and thus Type 09IV could become available at earlier date for conversion as it is not a very useful deterrence asset with 09VI/JL-3 in place. So the conversions might happen as soon as mid 2030s which would put the first two - from 2007 and 2009 - at 25 years of service.

However - what do we know about the lifecycle of the reactor and its economic feasibilty? What if it is designed to serve for 25 years only? Perhaps Type 09IV is designed with planned obsolescence in mind and can be written off without loss after 25 years? The other 4 (or more) boats will be at 10 or 20 years so it might be economic to refit them for special missions. And so If I was to speculate I'd assume a fast production cycle of 12 Type 09VI between 2025-2035 and conversion of 412, 414, 420 and 421 to special mission at the end and after that period.

Type 09IVA is valuable now but will not be a viable asset in 2035 much like first 18 to 23 (out of 34 built!) Yankee-class SSBNs were scrapped before 1991, despite being a leap in capabilities over Hotel SSBN with just 3 SLBMs - which were also scarapped at the same time (1987-1991). Deterrence must be viable and the factors that play into viability don't follow logic of service life-cycles.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Another expansion at Huludao shipyard photographed by satellite. Saw @Deino retweeted this Sutton's tweet, so I'll just post it here.

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Apparently a new harbor is under construction by extending out from the old submarine construction hall at Huludao.
Flsxn0IWAAAM2gT.jpeg

What's more interesting is Patch's reply to the tweet:

If Patch's information is accurate:
1. As far as what is known, at present, that there are 9x 093 & 093As in active service with the PLAN, with 1x 093B said to be fitting out at Huludao. So an additional 9x 093Bs to the fleet are indeed a huge increase of PLAN's future SSN fleet size (19 boats in total), especially if it could be done within short periods of time.

2. The two additional 094s with enlarged launch tubes (let's just call these boats 094Bs) would mean China's credible underwater nuclear deterrence fleet would be expanded to 8 boats in total in the future.

2.5. But man, when can we have our 096s...?

3. Perhaps the sole 095 said to begin construction/be under construction in Huludao is likely a test boat for the PLAN to test and verify the onboard facilities and technologies? Because I believe that if the PLAN is fully satisfied with the design and engineering of the new SSN class, then more than one 095s should be ordered instead.
 
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