09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[asif iqbal]

Just wondering whether China's submarine reactors are underpowered. Because for some reason Chinese nuclear-powered submarines are always smaller in displacement than those of other countries (except India, of course).

I don't think that is how nuclear submarines work

Even in the latest Astute Class the basic principle of nuclear propulsion has not changed

A reactor is used to heat water which crates steam then the steam drives the propeller and the vessel moves forward

The limitation in power is not due to the nuclear core reactor itself but the way in which the power is transferred and managed

Also it depends on the state of the reactor, when it goes critical we are taking about lots and lots of power so much so that to becomes all about "managing" the power, a nuclear reactor in itself can't be underpowered

 

[Hendrik_2000]

I thought this is interesting, Years back before the age of internet, I use to frequenting book store to browse and read aero magazine. And right there is a book about China nuclear submarine development chronicling the development of the nuclear submarine. Since China is a novice, they don't have a clue how to build nuclear submarine. According to the book, what they did is buy US submarine toy model and dissecting is to see how the US built their submarine

Well this article below confirm it

PLA's Type 091 nuclear submarine 'based on US toys'

• Staff Reporter
• 2015-02-02
• 09:31 (GMT+8)

The Changzheng 6, China's only Type 092 nuclear-powered and water-drop shaped submarine (Photo/CNS)

Huang Xuhua, the father of Chinese nuclear-powered submarine (Photo/CFP)

Huang Xuhua, China's chief submarine designer, has told Shenzhen Satellite Television that China's Type 091 Han-Class nuclear-powered submarine was designed and developed based on two toys from the United States.

After Huang took over the position as chief designer of the Type 091 submarine from Peng Shilu in 1983, he argued that the linear-shape design is no longer suitable for nuclear-powered submarines which operate at high speeds and at depths of up to 300 meters. Since each tangent plane of the hull is round in a streamlined water-drop shape, Huang believes the boat will be subject to minimum friction or drag while maintaining stability at great depths.

During this period of time, China was unable to get any foreign assistance since it was under a technology blockade imposed by both the United States and Soviet Union. Huang said that the United States took three steps to develop its own water-drop shaped nuclear-powered submarine. First, they installed a nuclear reactor into linear-shape submarines; then the American designed a conventional submarine with a water-drop shape and finally they put a nuclear reactor into the water-drop shaped submarine.

China decided to complete the three steps in one because it did not have enough time according to Huang. Eventually, they brought two US-made toy submarines back to China from Hong Kong and the United States. With those two toy submarines in different sizes, the Chinese researchers were able to learn the design of American water-drop shaped submarine through disassembling them. Huang said this is the reason why China was able to design its first water-drop shaped submarine.

References:

 

[AssassinsMace]

Time to call for worldwide ban of toys for China.

 

[Jeff Head]

...Eventually, they brought two US-made toy submarines back to China from Hong Kong and the United States. With those two toy submarines in different sizes, the Chinese researchers were able to learn the design of American water-drop shaped submarine through disassembling them. Huang said this is the reason why China was able to design its first water-drop shaped submarine.

References:

Sorry...but I find this story impossible to believe.

They would not have needed to buy a toy...there were hundreds of pictures in open source news reports of US submarines in those days which would have been much more accurate.

Toys...even scale models back in those days...would not have been as accurate.

Now...perhaps they did buy a model or "toy"...but I doubt it was what allowed them to actually build the vessels.

If so...then perhaps this is why they had such horrendous problems with the initial Type 091s and the Type 092...but despite those issues, I still find it more likely to be dis-information.

 

[rhino123]

I remember hearing the same thing from an expert in one of the military talk show once (really sorry, I don't remember that expert's name, it was a couple of years back and my memory is failing me) but I do vaguely remember he mentioned of China buying a toy from US. However, I do not remember that they dissect the toy, what I remember was the expert saying that since China had no experience or whatsoever with nuclear submarine, they got the toy to study the external shape of the submarine and from there built one. The inard of the submarine was more like trial and error, whereby they have scaled model to do the job.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Sorry...but I find this story impossible to believe.

They would not have needed to buy a toy...there were hundreds of pictures in open source news reports of US submarines in those days which would have been much more accurate.

Toys...even scale models back in those days...would not have been as accurate.

Now...perhaps they did buy a model or "toy"...but I doubt it was what allowed them to actually build the vessels.

If so...then perhaps this is why they had such horrendous problems with the initial Type 091s and the Type 092...but despite those issues, I still find it more likely to be dis-information.

I don't find it impossible or malicious intent at all. It is an honest confession from the father of Chinese nuclear submarine . He just want to clear his chest and settle the record straight. He is at the end of his career and Type 091 is going to be decommission soon So there is no harm in his revelation. The truth can now be revealed

Seeing 2 dimension picture is not the same thing with having the model. The model is based on accurate scale of the real thing. So they can scale it up and have right proportion of the submarine It is just and idea and inspiration. Of course they have to know the Hydrodynamic of submarine But is is much easier having a model in front of your eye than starting it from the scratch.

Having said that one cannot help but marvel at the determination,grit and resourcefulness of the design team . Remember this is China in 1980's where money and talent were short. No one is going to teach China how to built nuclear submarine
type 91 turn out to be noisy and barely function submarine. But you have to start from somewhere and make improvement as you go along That is what engineering is all about

In a way it is a way moral story to exhort the younger generation to press forward and show what kind of insurmountable hurdle the older generation has to face

 

[Blitzo]

Hendrik, are you really quoting Want China times? Come on...

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Hendrik, are you really quoting Want China times? Come on...

I don't care if the news is carry by Chinawantimes But it is bases on the interview that he give Shenzhen television. By the living breathing father of Chinese submarine

Huang Xuhua, China's chief submarine designer, has told Shenzhen Satellite Television that China's Type 091 Han-Class nuclear-powered submarine was designed and developed based on two toys from the United States.

If you can prove it to me that the interview never take place I will retract my posting. I read this story year back and Rhino heard it as well
Just because you don't like to hear the message doesn't mean you have to shoot the messenger

 

[Blitzo]

I don't care if the news is carry by Chinawantimes But it is bases on the interview that he give Shenzhen television. By the living breathing father of Chinese submarine

Huang Xuhua, China's chief submarine designer, has told Shenzhen Satellite Television that China's Type 091 Han-Class nuclear-powered submarine was designed and developed based on two toys from the United States.

If you can prove it to me that the interview never take place I will retract my posting. I heard this story year back and Rhino heard it as well

Actually, in this case I think the onus is on you to prove that the interview happened and that Huang Xuhua said those exact words given the nature of the claim.

Personally, I think they probably did buy some toy submarines from the US so they had a 3 dimensional representation of what a modern hull looked like, but want china times uses a terribly exaggerated and ridiculous title to suggest that somehow they based an entire submarine's design off a toy. Rather, they just had some toys AKA 3d models to look at the shape to guide their own hydrodynamic shape. I'm sure the US and USSR tested 3D models of each other's subs based off what they knew as well. In other words, this article is making a mountain out of a molehill.

So the lesson is that we should just avoid Want China Times in general.

 

[broadsword]

A toy! Why not?

It helps the designers in their discussions as they do not have to visualize words into pictures. Especially in 70s, computing and cad/cam were not pervasive in China. A toy can be a good substitute for a model.