09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[Anlsvrthng]

By saying all these, you are telling us the maximum silent speed of 093 being what? And it is worse than whom?

Exactly.
Same question with the Virginia class, they are silent, but if the Vriginia emission at 300 m operating deep with say 20 knots/hour half of the Akula at 300m deep and 20 knots, but the akula can dive to 600 operating deep and there the emission will be half at the same speed, then how can you compare the two submarine ?

The whole noise is a multi dimension equitation , not a simple number.

 

[Biscuits]

The thing is, if the Type-93 was that quiet, I would expect it to be publicly acknowledged given the deterrent effect of knowing there might be such a submarine in the area.

But given the variety of Type-93 variants we've seen, we can see that they were still continually improving the design just a few years ago.

However, we've seen the expansion of submarine construction facilities at Huludao. So presumably the next-gen Type-95 will be sufficiently quiet enough for mass production.

688i level isn’t that quiet though. Even the improved Akula is generally considered a little quieter than Shang.

The main divergence from the US and Russia seems to be that after designing their “Los Angeles level” submarine, China went ahead with a next generation diesel submarine instead of making a Seawolf/Yasen equivalent.

I see it as a (short term at least) rejection of the nuclear submarine concept.

Quietness seems to be the no 1 factor for the PLAN which doesn’t need to constantly patrol faraway seas or strike land targets with subs.

Edit: It could be that PLAN SSNs are mainly aimed to be rapid response forces against the Indian navy, which doesn’t require very powerful boats.

 

[Hyperwarp]

688i level isn’t that quiet though. Even the improved Akula is generally considered a little quieter than Shang.

The main divergence from the US and Russia seems to be that after designing their “Los Angeles level” submarine, China went ahead with a next generation diesel submarine instead of making a Seawolf/Yasen equivalent.

I see it as a (short term at least) rejection of the nuclear submarine concept.

Quietness seems to be the no 1 factor for the PLAN which doesn’t need to constantly patrol faraway seas or strike land targets with subs.

Edit: It could be that PLAN SSNs are mainly aimed to be rapid response forces against the Indian navy, which doesn’t require very powerful boats.

688i is pretty quiet. It was a big improvement over the 688. Yes, the 688i louder than the Seawolf, Virginia, Yasen and Astute but if China with the 093A jumped from the supposed hideous noise levels of 091 and early 093 to a 688i level, then that is a HUGE leap. Having an SSN in the class of the 688i right now (if true) is great news. To reach Seawolf, Virginia, Yasen and Astute levels, they have to wait for the 095.

 

[AndrewS]

688i level isn’t that quiet though. Even the improved Akula is generally considered a little quieter than Shang.

The main divergence from the US and Russia seems to be that after designing their “Los Angeles level” submarine, China went ahead with a next generation diesel submarine instead of making a Seawolf/Yasen equivalent.

I see it as a (short term at least) rejection of the nuclear submarine concept.

Quietness seems to be the no 1 factor for the PLAN which doesn’t need to constantly patrol faraway seas or strike land targets with subs.

Edit: It could be that PLAN SSNs are mainly aimed to be rapid response forces against the Indian navy, which doesn’t require very powerful boats.

I don't see the PLAN as having rejected the nuclear submarine concept. Remember that different variants of the Type-93 keep appearing.
That indicates experimentation and constant improvement, because the existing design is deemed unsatisfactory.

There's all sorts of uses for SSNs, but I would rate the Indian Navy as being low priority. China's core interests lie in the Western Pacific, and the naval units that can reach this area.

 

[gelgoog]

I think it is both a matter of naval investment priorities and lack of access to foreign technologies in this particular field. So the barrier to solving the issues is that much greater.

With the new production facilities and increased number of nuclear submarines I think we will see improvements in the area sooner rather than later.

 

[Blitzo]

688i level isn’t that quiet though. Even the improved Akula is generally considered a little quieter than Shang.

The main divergence from the US and Russia seems to be that after designing their “Los Angeles level” submarine, China went ahead with a next generation diesel submarine instead of making a Seawolf/Yasen equivalent.

I see it as a (short term at least) rejection of the nuclear submarine concept.

Quietness seems to be the no 1 factor for the PLAN which doesn’t need to constantly patrol faraway seas or strike land targets with subs.

Edit: It could be that PLAN SSNs are mainly aimed to be rapid response forces against the Indian navy, which doesn’t require very powerful boats.

China's progress with SSK development and new variants does not mean they are not pursuing next generation SSN capabilities.

We all know that next generation nuclear submarines are in the works for both SSN and SSBN roles.

But we have yet to see it emerge yet.

The fact that 09III variants are being produced in limited numbers means they have yet to reach a level of capability that will satisfy the PLAN for mass production. It took many iterations until the PLAN reached 052C and then 052D that satisfied their requirements and they were happy to procure large numbers.

It would be like suggesting that the limited production runs of destroyers prior to 2010 when 052C production restarted and 052D production subsequently began meant that the PLAN was "rejecting" the destroyer concept. No, it just meant they were waiting for a ship type that could meet their requirements before building them in large numbers.

Looking at PLAN requirements one can easily see that they have a requirement for a fleet of a couple dozen high performance SSNs at the least, to complement a large number of capable SSKs as well.

 

[asif iqbal]

Chinese submarine technology has matured a lot

Recent export orders also prove it

We can’t say what we know about Chinese nuclear submarines

Those articles about noise are years old

 

[Hyperwarp]

Chinese submarine technology has matured a lot

Recent export orders also prove it

We can’t say what we know about Chinese nuclear submarines

Those articles about noise are years old

This is true. The illustration below was release in 2009 by the US Office of Naval Intelligence. They have not released any updated information even after almost 10 years. Back then, they had projected by 2015 there would be a 095 with a relative detectability of neither high nor low ("Yellow" area). Unless what we call 093A today is what they thought as the 095 in 2009, those illustrations really don't mean much in 2018 (if any at all) other than to show how noisy the 091 and early 093 are. If the 093A falls between Akula I and II then thats a very good jump.

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The

 

[Totoro]

That image gets posted up a lot but it is quite dubious itself. Its creator, USNI, is not any sort of special source. Basically any sort of think tank, like RAND for example, could have hired the very same people (retired officers) to come up with such a chart, based on public knowledge (basically zero) and their own subjective perception of Chinese subs' noise levels, both current at the time and future perceived.

Here's a post which encapsulates most of theories on 093 noise levels. notice that USNI chart is most pessimistic of the lot, but other sources guesstimate less noise even for the original 093 sub variant.

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"the 093’s noise level has been reduced to that of the Russian Akula-class submarine at 110 decibels. He states that the 094’s acoustic signature has been reduced to 120 decibels. According to this report, this is definitely not equal to that of the Ohio class, but is on a par with the Los Angeles. There is no additional information given to evaluate concerning the origins or comparability of these 'data.'" - Andrew S. Erickson & Lyle J. Goldstein, 2006.

 

[Klon]

Its creator, USNI

The source is actually

US Office of Naval Intelligence.