09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[manqiangrexue]

According to a Japanese newspaper Yomiuri Shimbun, a high ranking official of Japanese Defense Ministry said, "it was fruitful that Japan was able to get Shang-class sub's data".

A big problem with you is that you don't filter data; you swallow it literally when it comes from someone with position. You're stuck on the word, "fruitful" but how would he know if it was fruitful? He just knows that he got data and he's not going to complicate the matter by saying, "We got data but we don't know if it's good because it's common practice for submarines to make excessive noise to cover their true acoustics during times when they know they're being detected." That statement is true; the technique is used around the world.

no, no. JMSDF's destroyer Onami started continuous hot pursuit when 093B was inside Senkaku's contiguous zone. After continuously chased for nearly 24 hours, the sub 093B surfaced, probably forced or unwillingly, not voluntarily. the sub 093B could not run away in East China Sea.

This would be another example of you failing to filter data. "Chased" actually means "followed." Just like China often says that it chased American FONOPS out of the South China but it actually means that they followed the US and the American ships eventually left. This is exactly what happened here. How could it actually be a chase? What's the sub afraid of? They're not going to depth-charge it; what else can they do?

Did the Japanese source say that the sub was forced to surface or did you add that? Because there is no mechanism in the world to force an enemy sub to surface. You can kill it with a depth charge to sink it, but if it doesn't want to surface, you can't do anything about it. If the Japanese source said this, it would be a direct example of their providing false information to sensationalize the article. If you said this, it demonstrates your lack of understanding of submarine operations.

 

[jobjed]

source?

I'd like to ask the JMSDF that too. Specifically regarding this claim:

the sub 093B surfaced, probably forced or unwillingly, not voluntarily. the sub 093B could not run away in East China Sea.

The Japanese like to claim a lot. It seems this time they're really outdone themselves and claimed to be psychics who could telepathically read the minds of PLAN commanders.

there is possibility that 093B's speed was significantly slower than 30 knots.

That possibility is called "low". A teardrop hull is hydrodynamically streamlined and a nuclear reactor provides practically as much power as can be safely harnessed. 30 knots is not a problem for a nuclear sub.

 

[ougoah]

There you have it. The sub captain stayed in the same place for five days to monitor JMSDF activity and collect as much intel as possible. Judging from the numerous assets dispatched by the JMSDF to keep tabs on it, I'd say it got plenty of intel on a large variety of JMSDF assets including shipboard sonar systems, ship organic helicopter sonars, and fixed-wing MPA.

Also, a 24 hour pursuit at high speed (30+ knots) means a distance travelled of 1400+ km, which is enough for the sub to not only reach Shanghai but sail another 800km up the Yangtze River from Diaoyu Islands. In other words, the 24 hour pursuit story is horseshit. At the sorts of speeds a destroyer and nuclear submarine can sail, the "pursuit" will be over within hours as the 09III sails within 12nm territorial waters of the Chinese mainland.

Exactly what this mission was. There would literally be no point in sending a nuclear powered attack sub over to these areas. Flag waving and piss contest is done overtly and if this was the aim, they'd have sailed many more vessels. Instead, what likely happened was they sent this sub (maybe with others shadowing) to gather signals intelligence and response procedures from Japanese assets. There is little chance they would sail one lone sub in, operating with as much stealth as the sub allows. If they were detected, there's no guarantee on how the Japanese will respond if they do even engage directly. So there's essentially no guarantee on this experiment because the outcome is not revealed to the Chinese either way. If they were detected, then they just gave away the signals for 093. Lose either way. Chinese are far too cunning to do this.

Now instead, 093 was sent in with accented signals to hide its actual signals in case of war (it's not all that impressive like others have stated but it still pays to mask all the details). Eventually it was picked up by Japanese and a response initiated. Towed sonar and observations were recording along with the surface vessel (maybe) and whatever information picked up COULD BE of some use to PLAN. Then again I also doubt the Japanese are stupid enough to bite the bait completely. They just sailed a vessel to the sub and followed it. That's what we know. Whatever intel picked up is pure speculation.

 

[SARB033]

There's a problem here. Well, unless the Chinese commanders are very stupid.

Why on Earth would they conduct this experiment? Do you not realise there is everything to lose and nothing to gain from such a move? Therefore both 1 and 2 are impossible UNLESS the Chinese are stupid. What do you think?

I don't think PLAN's act was stupid if they really had strong confidence that 093B was very very stealth. if PLAN had not enough confidence about 093B's stealth, their act could be a stupid gamble.

 

[ougoah]

SARB033 you have to understand that it is very common for submarines to make themselves more detectable. In fact it is something that is nearly always practiced. Recent US and Australian naval exercises, Australian sub accentuated their noise levels and then changed it up and it fooled the Americans. Russians simply surfaced their Kilo class in Atlantic waters near UK so Royal Navy couldn't get any intel. When subs really go for stealth, they usually stay hidden in where their commanders know they will stay undetected. There are procedures to this to avoid giving away sub acoustic signatures.

 

[manqiangrexue]

I don't think PLAN's act was stupid if they really had strong confidence that 093B was very very stealth. if PLAN had not enough confidence about 093B's stealth, their act could be a stupid gamble.

Makes no sense. Does the US have high confidence of F-22's stealth? Do they fly them around non-friendly high tech countries to gamble with nothing to win?

Testing your stealth assets in conditions that make them easy to detect against unfriendly nations is not something that countries do. You're imagining this "tactic."

 

[jobjed]

I don't think PLAN's act was stupid if they really had strong confidence that 093B was very very stealth.

Hahahaha, funny joke. What's next? J-10B is ten times more stealthy than F-22?

Let me make it completely clear to you that the 09III family is not anywhere close to being the most quiet submarine in PLAN service. The PLAN do possess extremely quiet and cutting edge submarines, they're called Type 039Bs. They didn't send a Type 039B to the Diaoyu Islands, take a guess why. Instead, they sent a Type 09III. Again, take another guess why.

if PLAN had not enough confidence about 093B's stealth, their act could be a stupid gamble.

What are they gambling with? There was 0% chance of the JMSDF lifting a finger against the submarine because if they dared do anything in the vicinity of Diaoyu Islands even hinting of violence, their country will cease to exist.

 

[ougoah]

I don't think PLAN's act was stupid if they really had strong confidence that 093B was very very stealth. if PLAN had not enough confidence about 093B's stealth, their act could be a stupid gamble.

What? Really?? You are still failing to appreciate the very VERY simple logic behind why this is borderline impossible. I hope readers have the mental capacity to comprehend this though. Not going to bother explaining again.

 

[Tam]

source?

PLAAF and PLANAF was gathering data just days before this incursion, by having aerial incursions into the area. Everyone naturally responded by turning their radars on, and sending the usual planes to intercept the Chinese planes. Except that these Chinese planes were not just any planes, they were Y-8 ELINT And ECM planes along with J-11s, H-6Ks, Su-30MKs with pods and the version of H-6s that were carrying ECM pods. Probably recorded a ton of data.

So the surface and the sub fleet must have felt, they need to do this too. That a frigate was there isn't coincidental. That ship could be recording echoes with its TAS and radio signals at the same time. The sub was the bait, the Type 054A in the area, was the trap.

The fact that they have to use a submarine that could fire YJ-18s is no coincidence either, given successful submarine launching of the missile just recently and the design group being awarded for that achievement.

No coincidence the top red spot is near where the 093B is, along with the frigate, as well the PLAAF and PLANAF aerial incursions were.

 

[SARB033]

Makes no sense. Does the US have high confidence of F-22's stealth? Do they fly them around non-friendly high tech countries to gamble with nothing to win?

Testing your stealth assets in conditions that make them easy to detect against unfriendly nations is not something that countries do. You're imagining this "tactic."

you cannot understand LOGIC?