075 LHD thread

[Tam]

I don't know why Deino is late posting this pic here. Its already on his Twitter account and in the PDF already. The latest pic on the 075.

 

[Iron Man]

Of course the space for VLS on CV-17 was designed out, because there was no appropriate MR SAM at the time that would've been able to accommodate it, so why wouldn't they remove it to use it for other purposes? (This is even assuming the VLS space on CV-17 derived from the original Kuznetsov design would've been enough to accommodate the dimensions of an MR SAM design that had yet to emerge at the time)

Again, if they had wanted an MRSAM, any MRSAM, they would have left space for it, even if they didn't know what they wanted yet. They certainly wouldn't have designed the space out of the original CV-16 parent design only to put it back later. This is just plain common sense.

Considering no amphibious assault ship or flattop exists in the world with organic LACMs, I think my norm stated in #1249 is quite relevant.

Considering no large amphibious warship exists in the world with VLS, there is no norm to speak of.

For the MR SAM we actually have had rumours for the last two years regarding a quad packable SAM that has been dubbed the "3-5" SAM (in regards to its capabilities; top speed of Mach 5, range 50km, and minimum altitude 5m), so it isn't exactly heretofore unknown. There is no compact VLS that has been rumoured though previously I did write my argument in a way that allowed for either using the same UVLS with the new MR SAM or with a new dedicated compact VLS for the MR SAM.

Applying my same standards by taking together the sum of rumours, and taking into account past norms of both flattop ships and norms of large amphibious assault ships, I believe that if 075 has a VLS then the least unlikely payload for it to carry would be an MR SAM, followed by VL ASW weapon and then LACMs.

Your standards demand "rumors" for new systems. There are no rumors for your alleged new "compact" VLS system. That's just the plain and simple facts.

Just because there are no other large amphibious warships with VLSs in the world doesn't mean that we are not able to alter our likelihood based on other relevant ship types that the 075 has relevant similar characteristics with.

Putting it another way; the 075 is a large amphibious warship, and it also a flattop.
There are no large amphibious warships in the world that have VLS, but there are flattop ships in the world with VLS.
Of the large amphibious warships in the world and flattops in the world with various organic weapons in general (carried in VLS or otherwise), the various different classes in the world carry a variety of organic weapons such as gun CIWS, missile CIWS, MR SAMs (in VLS and not VLS), as well as VL ASW weapons.
However not one large amphibious warship or flattop in the world carries organic LACMs whether it's VLS or not.

Based on the above, the best I am willing to give it is that if 075 does have VLS, then as a large amphibious warship that is a flattop, then it is possible that it may carry LACM but it is not the most likely payload it may carry.

That is why your argument only works when you dilute the denominator into utter meaninglessness. We are talking about a large amphibious warship, a ship like the 075. There aren't many in the world like it. Wasp, America, that's it, and neither of them have VLS. Even when you include the next tier of smaller LHDs like Mistral, Canberra, Juan Carlos, and Dokdo, none of these ships have VLS either. You have to go all the way down to 8,000t or way out of class to aircraft carriers and DDHs to even find VLS, at which point the role of such systems in these ships is so far removed from what a 075's VLS would conceivably load that it makes little to no sense to compare them.

 

[Iron Man]

Let me know when those VTOL jets can safely do land attacks without E-2 Hawkeye types AWACS system helping them. Bottom line of my argument is VTOL jets on LDH is usefull (to some extent) but not a big changer as you would assume it to be because of their natural short range against other land base fighter jets.

ARGs don't invariably have CSGs attached to them, and so they routinely operate without AWACS support. As long as they have a target and are pounding 2nd or 3rd tier militaries, "safety" is not a big issue. Again, we aren't talking about great power conflict. We are talking about either China or the US beating on a smaller country. Sending a USN ARG to China's coast is suicide, as is sending a PLAN ARG to US's coast.

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Why the back and forth on what types of missiles will be carried in VLS that very likely won't even exist!?

 

[Jura The idiot]

I am afraid you are not connecting the dots as to where this is going.

THE US armed services especially the USN and USMC have been talking about distributed lethality for some time and more recently about the concept o island hopping. For those wondering where those missiles will be placed post INF world, the concept is basically to put those long range missiles into a truck and ferry them via V-22 a thousand kms away onto some remote island, unload and fire them away with tracking data from F-35s. Pack and then disappear back onto their LHA's or whatever.

Remember the test in August of a F-35 providing tracking data to ground missile via the IBCS network.

took it to
US Military News, Reports, Data, etc. 2 minutes ago

 

[Mirabo]

Scaffolding taken off the funnel.

 

[Brumby]

We are talking about a large amphibious warship, a ship like the 075. There aren't many in the world like it. Wasp, America, that's it, and neither of them have VLS. Even when you include the next tier of smaller LHDs like Mistral, Canberra, Juan Carlos, and Dokdo, none of these ships have VLS either. You have to go all the way down to 8,000t or way out of class to aircraft carriers and DDHs to even find VLS, at which point the role of such systems in these ships is so far removed from what a 075's VLS would conceivably load that it makes little to no sense to compare them.

There are a couple of reasons why I believe that there are no VLS associated with Amphibious assault vessels. First is that CIWS and Rolling missiles are for self protection in the event of leakers. MR SAM that typically come with VLS are for local air defense. It is not the function of Amphibious assault ships to provide area air defense - it is the job of support vessels. The second reason is MR SAM requires pairing to the appropriate sensor due to range and may present interference to air traffic control systems and sensors LACM is even further away in the overall functional role division. Whether there are precedents is irrelevant.

In my view it would be silly to place VLS onto the type 075 as it would occupy valuable real estate. One would argue what on earth is China building all the Type 055 and 052s for if the Type 075 has to do their job..

 

[snake65]

That is why your argument only works when you dilute the denominator into utter meaninglessness. We are talking about a large amphibious warship, a ship like the 075. There aren't many in the world like it. Wasp, America, that's it, and neither of them have VLS. Even when you include the next tier of smaller LHDs like Mistral, Canberra, Juan Carlos, and Dokdo, none of these ships have VLS either. You have to go all the way down to 8,000t or way out of class to aircraft carriers and DDHs to even find VLS, at which point the role of such systems in these ships is so far removed from what a 075's VLS would conceivably load that it makes little to no sense to compare them.

Italian Trieste LHD is 33000 tons full load and has 2x8 cell VLS Sylver.

 

[Equation]

ARGs don't invariably have CSGs attached to them, and so they routinely operate without AWACS support. As long as they have a target and are pounding 2nd or 3rd tier militaries, "safety" is not a big issue. Again, we aren't talking about great power conflict. We are talking about either China or the US beating on a smaller country. Sending a USN ARG to China's coast is suicide, as is sending a PLAN ARG to US's coast.

So bottom line is that using a F-35B type VTOL to beat up on "2nd or 3rd tier military" is quite an expansive adventure to say the least. Throwing missiles or bombing land targets doesn't need to be using VTOL type jets, it can be done by drones and cruise missiles without risking the pilot's life and more cost effective.

 

[Yazzinra]

quoted wrong person. no way to delete post that i can see.