075 LHD thread

[Hendrik_2000]

075 certainly can have an ASW role, however we know that it will be using diesel engines for propulsion and it is not expected to have a similar profile to the Japanese Izumo or Hyuga class ASW carriers which are designed with propulsion to be able to achieve 30+ knots, which is necessary to do the ASW mission to support a fleet of surface combatants that will be doing 30+ knots as well.

075's configuration and propulsion OTOH is much more similar to that of a standard multirole LHD like the European Juan Carlos or Mistral classes, or the Korean Dokdo or US Wasp classes, sans the STOVL jets of course. All of those ships are not capable of doing 30+ knots like the Japanese ships.

Yes, 075 can absolutely carry ASW helicopters and it can do the ASW job, however it is unlikely to have that as a primary mission because the ship will be limited by its speed. We also know 075 has a well deck which is much more consistent with an LHD that has amphibious assault as a major mission in mind as well.


The CGI diagrams are also inconsistent with what we know about the PLAN's helicopter development; for one they show a navalized Z-15 when we know that the Z-20 is being navalized instead.
The diagram of the LHD they depict is also variation of the CSOC LHD offered for export many years ago, and smaller than what we expect 075 to actually look like.

So yes, I think I can certainly judge this article and its pictures, and say that significant parts of it are speculative and inaccurate.

Why is speed has anything to do with ASW role of LHD ? It is not like the LHD is going to hunt submarine on it s own It does not make sense. so whether ship is using CODAG or CODOD is irrelevant.
As long as the LHD can keep up with the rest of CBG or Convoy that is good enough
Most likely it will be deployed as a part of convoy or CBG to provide submarine screen for the CBG using its large number of ASW helicopter

Any LHD is multipurpose by its nature nothing surprising here . The article in SINA does not specifically said it is sole duty is anti submarine So I am perplexed why you said it is speculation? There is nothing speculation in the excerpt that I quote
Even Izumo is classified as multipurpose but you can considered it as ASW type of flat top The designation is originated in WWII where they converted big cruiser or large civilian ship into small carrier to hunt submarine and to function as escort of convoy of ship transiting the Atlantic. VS a large carrier that is built to protect ships from air attack and to provide offensive capability. And has minimum ASW plane like Gannet
Notice this sentence
small

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

whose primary role is as the nucleus of an

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

By this definition any LHD equipped with large ASW Heli can be considered ASW flat top

An anti-submarine warfare carrier (ASW carrier) (US

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

CVS) is a type of small

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

whose primary role is as the nucleus of an

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

. This type of ship came into existence during the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

as a development of the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

used in the ASW role in the North Atlantic during

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

.

 

[Blitzo]

Why is speed has anything to do with ASW role of LHD ? It is not like the LHD is going to hunt submarine on it s own It does not make sense. so whether ship is using CODAG or CODOD is irrelevant.
As long as the LHD can keep up with the rest of CBG or Convoy that is good enough
Most likely it will be deployed as a part of convoy or CBG to provide submarine screen for the CBG using its large number of ASW helicopter

Any LHD is multipurpose by its nature nothing surprising here . The article in SINA does not specifically said it is sole duty is anti submarine So I am perplexed why you said it is speculation? There is nothing speculation in the excerpt that I quote
Even Izumo is classified as multipurpose but you can considered it as ASW type of flat top The designation is originated in WWII where they converted big cruiser or large civilian ship into small carrier to hunt submarine and to function as escort of convoy of ship transiting the Atlantic. VS a large carrier that is built to protect ships from air attack and to provide offensive capability. And has minimum ASW plane like Gannet
Notice this sentence
small

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

whose primary role is as the nucleus of an

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

By this definition any LHD equipped with large ASW Heli can be considered ASW flat top

An anti-submarine warfare carrier (ASW carrier) (US

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

CVS) is a type of small

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

whose primary role is as the nucleus of an

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

. This type of ship came into existence during the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

as a development of the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

used in the ASW role in the North Atlantic during

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

.

The reason why speed is important is because

The article from Sina wrote about 075 as a multi purpose LHD that might be able to significantly enhance the PLAN's ASW capability by virtue of its load of ASW helicopters. I have no issue with that.

However it also writes of "The perimeter of the Chinese fleet will become a striking submarine. The giant network, the anti-submarine helicopter and the destroyer sonar, coupled with the advanced anti-submarine torpedo, China will have the same anti-submarine strength as the United States, so that any submarine that intervenes to challenge the Chinese fleet will be strangled in the depths of the ocean."

^ That right there is an exaggeration and a misrepresentation of the ASW abilities that an LHD can bring to a Chinese fleet. The key difference here again is speed, because for an LHD to provide adequate ASW support to a task force or fleet it must be capable of escorting it at the same speed as the rest of the fleet. China's LHDs will almost certainly not be able to make 30+ knots to keep up with the destroyers and carries or even frigates.


Yes, an LHD can certainly enhance the PLAN's ASW capability. However the article exaggerates the nature of how the 075 may do so.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

The reason why speed is important is because

The article from Sina wrote about 075 as a multi purpose LHD that might be able to significantly enhance the PLAN's ASW capability by virtue of its load of ASW helicopters. I have no issue with that.

However it also writes of "The perimeter of the Chinese fleet will become a striking submarine. The giant network, the anti-submarine helicopter and the destroyer sonar, coupled with the advanced anti-submarine torpedo, China will have the same anti-submarine strength as the United States, so that any submarine that intervenes to challenge the Chinese fleet will be strangled in the depths of the ocean."

^ That right there is an exaggeration and a misrepresentation of the ASW abilities that an LHD can bring to a Chinese fleet. The key difference here again is speed, because for an LHD to provide adequate ASW support to a task force or fleet it must be capable of escorting it at the same speed as the rest of the fleet. China's LHDs will almost certainly not be able to make 30+ knots to keep up with the destroyers and carries or even frigates.


Yes, an LHD can certainly enhance the PLAN's ASW capability. However the article exaggerates the nature of how the 075 may do so.

I may be being more than a little facetious, but if the LHD can't keep up with the fleet... slow down the fleet.

 

[Blitzo]

I may be being more than a little facetious, but if the LHD can't keep up with the fleet... slow down the fleet.

For certain conflicts it could actually be viable, for certain others, slowing down the rest of the fleet to allow an LHD to be part of it could be disastrous.


Point is, the 075 to our knowledge isn't ASW centric to the degree that the Sina article makes it seem.

 

[Gloire_bb]

I may be being more than a little facetious, but if the LHD can't keep up with the fleet... slow down the fleet.

In ASW, it's fairly simple to turn from hunter into a prey.

Furthermore, Vmax isn't the only mutually contradictory requirement between ASW carrier and a LHD.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

The reason why speed is important is because

The article from Sina wrote about 075 as a multi purpose LHD that might be able to significantly enhance the PLAN's ASW capability by virtue of its load of ASW helicopters. I have no issue with that.

However it also writes of "The perimeter of the Chinese fleet will become a striking submarine. The giant network, the anti-submarine helicopter and the destroyer sonar, coupled with the advanced anti-submarine torpedo, China will have the same anti-submarine strength as the United States, so that any submarine that intervenes to challenge the Chinese fleet will be strangled in the depths of the ocean."

^ That right there is an exaggeration and a misrepresentation of the ASW abilities that an LHD can bring to a Chinese fleet. The key difference here again is speed, because for an LHD to provide adequate ASW support to a task force or fleet it must be capable of escorting it at the same speed as the rest of the fleet. China's LHDs will almost certainly not be able to make 30+ knots to keep up with the destroyers and carries or even frigates.


Yes, an LHD can certainly enhance the PLAN's ASW capability. However the article exaggerates the nature of how the 075 may do so.

That is assuming that the submarine is running at 30+ knots which rarely done in hunting mode Submarine does not use their max speed in hunting mode since they exacerbate the noise due to hull hydrodynamic and screw cavitation. They will be easily detected. Most submarine rarely goes more than 17knots in hunting mode. Max speed only used for transit!
So your argument is big BS!

Another thing running on diesel engine does not foreclose that the ship cannot make 30 knots
Some of the Russian sub can go as fast as 45 knots So the argument that LHD with CODAG can run run 30 knot! is a moot point

Max speed will only be used during transit How do submarine evade their pursuer by staying stand still and doing nothing until the pursuer left or in diesel sub they use the electric motor fed by battery doing slow creep

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

For certain conflicts it could actually be viable, for certain others, slowing down the rest of the fleet to allow an LHD to be part of it could be disastrous.


Point is, the 075 to our knowledge isn't ASW centric to the degree that the Sina article makes it seem.

In ASW, it's fairly simple to turn from hunter into a prey.

Furthermore, Vmax isn't the only mutually contradictory requirement between ASW carrier and a LHD.

I just looked up the Wasp and America classes and they both have a top speed of around 20 knots. So the article claiming that the 075 will give the PLAN similar capabilities to the USN's amphibious ships cannot be countered by claiming the 075 can't move at 30 knots. The Izumo and Hyūga are unusual in this regard, which I would put down to the Japanese flagrantly violating the spirit of the law forbidding them from fielding aircraft carriers. In any case, China certainly has the means to juice the performance of the 075 by installing four gas turbines at 30+ MW apiece (I believe a GT25000 variant has reached 33MW and is aiming for 40 using intercooling and recuperation).

 

[Hendrik_2000]

And yes ASW LHD will strengthen PLAN submarine warfare for the same reason that Japan built 4 of them and filled them with ASW helicopter. If you know anything Japan function in cold war era is to guard the sea of Okhotsk from Russian submarine and prevent them from entering pacific

 

[Intrepid]

An aircraft carrier battle group is moving fast, so this is not an easy target for a submarine. As long as it moves fast, it does not need an LHD for submarine defense.

Once the aircraft carrier battle group has reached a position that will hold it for a longer period of time, an LHD would be very useful for far-reaching anti-submarine protection.

 

[Blitzo]

I just looked up the Wasp and America classes and they both have a top speed of around 20 knots. So the article claiming that the 075 will give the PLAN similar capabilities to the USN's amphibious ships cannot be countered by claiming the 075 can't move at 30 knots. The Izumo and Hyūga are unusual in this regard, which I would put down to the Japanese flagrantly violating the spirit of the law forbidding them from fielding aircraft carriers. In any case, China certainly has the means to juice the performance of the 075 by installing four gas turbines at 30+ MW apiece (I believe a GT25000 variant has reached 33MW and is aiming for 40 using intercooling and recuperation).

For the record I never had any problem with the suggestion that 075 would have a similar multirole nature to the Wasp class, in fact I directly stated so in a previous post.

What I had a problem with was the article's exaggeration of the 075's potential ASW role for the PLAN.