075 LHD thread

[taxiya]

The well dock would completely unnecessary for something intended for purely an ASW escort carrier, too.

if you are replying to #1057, how would you stop and catch pirates on a speed boat with hostages? Helicopter can not shoot them, marines can not land on them. On the other hand, hovercraft launched from the well deck can do that job well with much higher speed than the speed boat pirates use, and it can carry enough special forces.

P.S. PLAN does not necessarily build their ships exactly according to USN practice, there may never be a one to one mapping of ship types. I dare to say there won't be PLAN LHA (without well deck) ever.

 

[Blitzo]

if you are replying to #1057, how would you stop and catch pirates on a speed boat with hostages? Helicopter can not shoot them, marines can not land on them. On the other hand, hovercraft launched from the well deck can do that job well with much higher speed than the speed boat pirates use, and it can carry enough special forces.

P.S. PLAN does not necessarily build their ships exactly according to USN practice, there may never be a one to one mapping of ship types. I dare to say there won't be PLAN LHA (without well deck) ever.

He was replying to #1058.

Hovercraft are completely unsuited for anti piracy missions -- I dare say I've never seen of the USN or PLAN using their hovercraft in an anti-piracy capacity. Yes, hovercraft are fast, but they are also very large and compared to RHIBs are very difficult if not impossible to conduct VBSS. If we are talking about a situation where pirates have somehow managed to take hostages aboard their own speedboat, a hovercraft would be even worse off because USN LCACs and PLAN Type 726s are massive vessels that cannot do the VBSS mission let alone hostage rescue. USN and PLAN LCACs are high speed landing craft, unsuited for intercepting small boats

From what I've observed, anti piracy tactics seem to revolve around identifying and boarding the larger, slower pirate "motherships" (where helicopters or RHIBs are perfectly adequate for, when supported by a standard naval ship whether it's a frigate, a destroyer or a larger LHD type ship), or it revolves around deterring high speed pirate boats from getting too close to convoys escorted by naval forces.

If a pirate boat gets too close then warning shots are fired (such as from helicopters or naval ships) along with broadcasted messages to stop to be searched, which is usually enough to stop them and allows you to send a VBSS team aboard an RHIB.
If a pirate speedboat has got hostages somehow then it means you've probably messed up one of the earlier stages. In such a situation if you want to intercept the boat you would probably send a helicopter with a fire team to try and force the boat to stop and have your own RHIB to catch up to it.



An LHD can be useful for the anti piracy role (as mentioned in #1057) because of its complement of helicopters + marines that can do the escort, warning and VBSS missions, as well as using the welldeck of the LHD to store multiple RHIBs.

 

[taxiya]

He was replying to #1058.

Hovercraft are completely unsuited for anti piracy missions -- I dare say I've never seen of the USN or PLAN using their hovercraft in an anti-piracy capacity. Yes, hovercraft are fast, but they are also very large and compared to RHIBs are very difficult if not impossible to conduct VBSS. If we are talking about a situation where pirates have somehow managed to take hostages aboard their own speedboat, a hovercraft would be even worse off because USN LCACs and PLAN Type 726s are massive vessels that cannot do the VBSS mission let alone hostage rescue. USN and PLAN LCACs are high speed landing craft, unsuited for intercepting small boats

From what I've observed, anti piracy tactics seem to revolve around identifying and boarding the larger, slower pirate "motherships" (where helicopters or RHIBs are perfectly adequate for, when supported by a standard naval ship whether it's a frigate, a destroyer or a larger LHD type ship), or it revolves around deterring high speed pirate boats from getting too close to convoys escorted by naval forces.

If a pirate boat gets too close then warning shots are fired (such as from helicopters or naval ships) along with broadcasted messages to stop to be searched, which is usually enough to stop them and allows you to send a VBSS team aboard an RHIB.
If a pirate speedboat has got hostages somehow then it means you've probably messed up one of the earlier stages. In such a situation if you want to intercept the boat you would probably send a helicopter with a fire team to try and force the boat to stop and have your own RHIB to catch up to it.



An LHD can be useful for the anti piracy role (as mentioned in #1057) because of its complement of helicopters + marines that can do the escort, warning and VBSS missions, as well as using the welldeck of the LHD to store multiple RHIBs.

About the LCAC and Type 726 being massive, yes they are and not suitable than a RHIB, but PLAN has this smaller hovercraft slightly larger than a RHIB.

I agree, chasing and stopping a hostage taken speedboat fleeing towards the coast is the last resort. But I wonder how would a helicopter able to stop the boat, Shooting pirate or the engine is very risky in a choppy water, risking the life of hostages. Hostage takers dare to not stop for that reason.

P.S. I am not saying PLAN is thinking of the same thing as I do, just saying a potential application of LHD.

 

[PanAsian]

LHDs fill the bill of "We want to patrol and control the sea territory, but we don't want to look too heavy handed using a full sized aircraft carrier to do so."

A case in point would be patrolling the Gulf of Aden. An aircraft carrier would look too heavy handed, but an LHD may not.

LHDs make the most flexible mobile forward operating bases for MOOTW. They are also essential for the PLAN to secure China's near seas up through the 1st island chain. 6 is the minimum number necessary, can use up to double that with a 2:1 ratio to carriers. In my opinion they are more needed than carriers, glad to see they are finally being built and in multiples.

 

[Blitzo]

About the LCAC and Type 726 being massive, yes they are and not suitable than a RHIB, but PLAN has this smaller hovercraft slightly larger than a RHIB.

I agree, chasing and stopping a hostage taken speedboat fleeing towards the coast is the last resort. But I wonder how would a helicopter able to stop the boat, Shooting pirate or the engine is very risky in a choppy water, risking the life of hostages. Hostage takers dare to not stop for that reason.

P.S. I am not saying PLAN is thinking of the same thing as I do, just saying a potential application of LHD.

Yes, well a number of navies do have smaller LCACs, however they have the same problems of being able to maneuvre effectively. The benefits of an LCAC as I see it are their speed and their ability to travel on land directly from the sea, which is why they're mostly used as landing craft.


The specific scenario of trying to rescue a hostage taken by a pirate speedboat is a rather unique one and I can't see how an hovercraft (even a smaller one like what you've suggested) would be particularly useful for that mission anyhow; the challenges they would face in that scenario are worse than if you deployed a helicopter+RHIB combination. (e.g.: it's not like a hovercraft will be able to force a pirate boat to stop anymore than a helicopter+RHIB would)



I suppose what I'm saying is that LHDs do have utility for anti piracy (as USN deployments to Gulf of Aden with their LHDs have shown), however that benefit is primarily via their helicopter complement, their marine/VBSS complement and their ability to accommodate larger numbers of larger RHIBs if necessary in the welldeck.
LCACs and hovercrafts are not really a factor for anti piracy.

 

[Sczepan]

...
An LHD can be useful for the anti piracy role (as mentioned in #1057) because of its complement of helicopters + marines that can do the escort, warning and VBSS missions, as well as using the welldeck of the LHD to store multiple RHIBs.

agree, a LPD also can be useful:

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[Hendrik_2000]

That's an article from mil sina and the CGIs are speculative fan made.

There is no reason to take it seriously.

And you are the judge what is speculative and what is not you smart alec. The article does not say anything outlandish or out of this world
The fact is that type 75 can carry a lot of helicopter and certainly ASW is one of the function of LHD The japanese Izumo class LHD is designed and intended as ASW platform

 

[Biscuits]

About having a well deck on an ASW carrier, one should remember the PLA only has a small budget at it’s disposal.

It’s quite possible that they installed the well deck to let the LHDs perform other tasks beside being ASW platforms because they don’t have the budget to build separate platforms.

 

[williamhou]

About having a well deck on an ASW carrier, one should remember the PLA only has a small budget at it’s disposal.

It’s quite possible that they installed the well deck to let the LHDs perform other tasks beside being ASW platforms because they don’t have the budget to build separate platforms.

I am not sure PLAN even have a potential target where that well deck could be put to good use, its not like they will send an expeditionary force across an ocean. ASW carriers are really what they need, but it does not harm to make it more multifunctional, nevertheless.

 

[Blitzo]

And you are the judge what is speculative and what is not you smart alec. The article does not say anything outlandish or out of this world
The fact is that type 75 can carry a lot of helicopter and certainly ASW is one of the function of LHD The japanese Izumo class LHD is designed and intended as ASW platform

075 certainly can have an ASW role, however we know that it will be using diesel engines for propulsion and it is not expected to have a similar profile to the Japanese Izumo or Hyuga class ASW carriers which are designed with propulsion to be able to achieve 30+ knots, which is necessary to do the ASW mission to support a fleet of surface combatants that will be doing 30+ knots as well.

075's configuration and propulsion OTOH is much more similar to that of a standard multirole LHD like the European Juan Carlos or Mistral classes, or the Korean Dokdo or US Wasp classes, sans the STOVL jets of course. All of those ships are not capable of doing 30+ knots like the Japanese ships.

Yes, 075 can absolutely carry ASW helicopters and it can do the ASW job, however it is unlikely to have that as a primary mission because the ship will be limited by its speed. We also know 075 has a well deck which is much more consistent with an LHD that has amphibious assault as a major mission in mind as well.


The CGI diagrams are also inconsistent with what we know about the PLAN's helicopter development; for one they show a navalized Z-15 when we know that the Z-20 is being navalized instead.
The diagram of the LHD they depict is also variation of the CSOC LHD offered for export many years ago, and smaller than what we expect 075 to actually look like.

So yes, I think I can certainly judge this article and its pictures, and say that significant parts of it are speculative and inaccurate.