071 LPD thread

[Lion]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Actually I would guess even less than that. Maybe 35%. The PLAN LCAC cannot carry more than one single row of vehicles, whereas the USN LCAC can carry three rows.

3 row of HUmvee or MBT??

From the youtube video, the Chinese LCAC definitely can squeeze in at least a ZTZ99 A1.

I agree with the 60 percent capacity.

 

[ZTZ99]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

3 row of HUmvee or MBT??

From the youtube video, the Chinese LCAC definitely can squeeze in at least a ZTZ99 A1.

I agree with the 60 percent capacity.

3 rows of Humvees. In terms of MBTs like the ZTZ99, the issue is not space but weight. This tank weighs 50-55t and the PLAN LCAC would need to be able to lift that much weight. But in any case we have been talking about surface area more than weight capacity. In this case 35% is definitely about right.

 

[tphuang]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

With most of the measurements we got of the chinese lcac (from google earth and based on surrounding objects), it is close to the dimension of the american one. The beam of San Antonio is only 1 or 2 m longer than 071. Chinese LCAC basically takes up the entire width of the well deck. That suggests that it should be no more than 1 or 2 m less in width than the American LCAC. From all the pictures, it indicates two lanes, which would indicate the ability to carry two columns of whatever vehicle they intend to carry. If you take a look at the attached poster, looks like it has plenty of leftover space on both side of the tank coming out.

As for the ability to carry MBT, if it can't carry at least a ZTZ-96 MBT, then the design is basically worthless. From what I read, it is designed to carry ZTZ-99. It's powered by two 7 MW which is around 10,000 hp. Not as much as the American LCAC, but ZTZ-99 is also lighter than M1A1 and PLAN probably doesn't have the same speed requirements as USMC does.

But as in all PLAN assets, let's wait for the official numbers to come out. They will probably come out within the next 2 years, once it's done all the sea trials and such.

 

[Lion]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Definitely can hold a ZTZ99 A1 weight or more. Somebody just think PLAN are stupid to make LCAC can't handle that weight plus as Tphuang point out. They need not make a LCAC that can match USN LCAC cost PLA MBT are much lighter compare to USMC M1A2

 

[ZTZ99]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

With most of the measurements we got of the chinese lcac (from google earth and based on surrounding objects), it is close to the dimension of the american one. The beam of San Antonio is only 1 or 2 m longer than 071. Chinese LCAC basically takes up the entire width of the well deck. That suggests that it should be no more than 1 or 2 m less in width than the American LCAC. From all the pictures, it indicates two lanes, which would indicate the ability to carry two columns of whatever vehicle they intend to carry.

I have done my own close examination of the cargo area of the PLAN LCAC. It has the space (at a few points) to load two Humvee-sized vehicles side by side. However, the front ramp does not have the width to allow two vehicles to disembark simultaneously, only one. There are also two vents located on the inside floor of the cargo area which would essentially make it impossible to load two side by side and still have vehicles be able to easily roll on or roll off. Also, there are no mooring line attachment holes in the midline of the cargo area, which would be needed to secure two vehicles side by side. This is the most important fact against the PLAN LCAC being able to load 2 rows of vehicles. The holes are only present along the edges. Look at a photo of the USMC LCAC to see how their holes are arranged. Game over as far as I'm concerned.

If you take a look at the attached poster, looks like it has plenty of leftover space on both side of the tank coming out.

That poster is meaningless. It's just a piece of artwork. But there is definitely space for a tank, there is no question about that. On the other hand, space is not the limiting factor for tanks, it's the weight. What we don't know is if the LCAC has the weight capacity to handle an MBT.

As for the ability to carry MBT, if it can't carry at least a ZTZ-96 MBT, then the design is basically worthless. From what I read, it is designed to carry ZTZ-99. It's powered by two 7 MW which is around 10,000 hp. Not as much as the American LCAC, but ZTZ-99 is also lighter than M1A1 and PLAN probably doesn't have the same speed requirements as USMC does.

It is certainly not worthless if it can't carry an MBT just because the USN LCAC can, especially since the PLAN doesn't own or operate any MBT's whatsoever. It does operate quite a few IFV's with minimal amphibious capability, 2 or 3 of which could be carried by this LCAC.

Definitely can hold a ZTZ99 A1 weight or more. Somebody just think PLAN are stupid to make LCAC can't handle that weight plus as Tphuang point out. They need not make a LCAC that can match USN LCAC cost PLA MBT are much lighter compare to USMC M1A2

"Definitely" you say? Your desire does not equal reality. I myself can only say maybe. Maybe they were designed to carry ARMY tanks, or maybe they were just designed to carry navy IFV's. I know it would be a disappointment for you if this thing did not live up to your expectations, but let's not project personal wishes into actual capability.

 

[Lion]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

"Definitely" you say? Your desire does not equal reality. I myself can only say maybe. Maybe they were designed to carry ARMY tanks, or maybe they were just designed to carry navy IFV's. I know it would be a disappointment for you if this thing did not live up to your expectations, but let's not project personal wishes into actual capability.

Is not my desire, its a sensible and basic operational requirement for PLAN. And its not a very difficult thing for them to achieve. It not like building a spaceship flying to Mars..

Last time some so called expert bet with us LDP 071 can't flood compartment and told us not to be disappointed for for this short coming becos they are so sure of it and know the shortcoming of PLAN. You know , it end up what? They were very embarassed and disappointed of their assessment.

 

[tphuang]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

I have done my own close examination of the cargo area of the PLAN LCAC. It has the space (at a few points) to load two Humvee-sized vehicles side by side. However, the front ramp does not have the width to allow two vehicles to disembark simultaneously, only one. There are also two vents located on the inside floor of the cargo area which would essentially make it impossible to load two side by side and still have vehicles be able to easily roll on or roll off. Also, there are no mooring line attachment holes in the midline of the cargo area, which would be needed to secure two vehicles side by side. This is the most important fact against the PLAN LCAC being able to load 2 rows of vehicles. The holes are only present along the edges. Look at a photo of the USMC LCAC to see how their holes are arranged. Game over as far as I'm concerned.


That poster is meaningless. It's just a piece of artwork. But there is definitely space for a tank, there is no question about that. On the other hand, space is not the limiting factor for tanks, it's the weight. What we don't know is if the LCAC has the weight capacity to handle an MBT.


It is certainly not worthless if it can't carry an MBT just because the USN LCAC can, especially since the PLAN doesn't own or operate any MBT's whatsoever. It does operate quite a few IFV's with minimal amphibious capability, 2 or 3 of which could be carried by this LCAC.


"Definitely" you say? Your desire does not equal reality. I myself can only say maybe. Maybe they were designed to carry ARMY tanks, or maybe they were just designed to carry navy IFV's. I know it would be a disappointment for you if this thing did not live up to your expectations, but let's not project personal wishes into actual capability.

So your argument is that it has the width but it can't do it because it's impossible at current configuration to be able to comfortably get on and off. Two things to consider;
1) This is a prototype that is testing things out, so it will likely have some design flaws that will be corrected by later units
2) It makes completely no sense for pla to create a hovercraft with width to carry 2 columns and not use it. That would just be plainly stupid.

If it can't carry a MBT, it is worthless. They have plenty of amphibious ships that can carry all their amphibious ships close enough to the shore to get on their. They don't need to build an expensive lpd + a complete new hovercraft design to just carry 3 more Type 05 amphibious units over. They have a bunch of smaller hovercraft that can also do it, they don't need a new larger hovercraft and then waste space and payload and money.

But as usual in PLAN, let's wait for photos to come out. It took a while before we saw that it could 4 of these things and also have hangar for 4 helicopter.

Remember, it's still just started to undergo real tests in deep sea. PLAN is still figuring out what they can do to make it fulfill its designed goals.

 

[ZTZ99]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Is not my desire, its a sensible and basic operational requirement for PLAN. And its not a very difficult thing for them to achieve. It not like building a spaceship flying to Mars..

Maybe. Maybe not.

Last time some so called expert bet with us LDP 071 can't flood compartment and told us not to be disappointed for for this short coming becos they are so sure of it and know the shortcoming of PLAN. You know , it end up what? They were very embarassed and disappointed of their assessment.

What are you referring to? Is this some oblique attempt at an insult? I have never had problems with the 071 flooding or not, since most LPD's can flood their well decks and are designed to do so.

So your argument is that it has the width but it can't do it because it's impossible at current configuration to be able to comfortably get on and off. Two things to consider;
1) This is a prototype that is testing things out, so it will likely have some design flaws that will be corrected by later units
2) It makes completely no sense for pla to create a hovercraft with width to carry 2 columns and not use it. That would just be plainly stupid.

That is not what I'm saying. I said it has the width in some places, but that it is totally impractical and physically impossible to secure two side by side. Going from back to front, the transmission compartments that straddle the rear ramp prevent two from being able to fit. Just forward of that the space widens where you could fit two. Just forward of that however, are two poorly placed vents which again narrow the space and prevent two from fitting. Just forward of that the space widens again, allowing two. However, just forward of that is the ramp which clearly is designed for only one vehicle to egress at a time. The width of this ramp is even narrower than the space (width) the vents permit. This pattern of narrow, wide, narrow, wide, narrow clearly indicates to me the designers did not have any intentions of loading vehicles side by side, as it would be very difficult to load and unload 2 rows with these physical barriers in place. For me to be convinced that this LCAC can load two rows, they would have to relocate the vent structures to the outside of the LCAC, put mooring line holes down the midline, and widen the front ramp. As you say this is a prototype, and if we see these kinds of modifications in the future, I think this hovercraft will become more versatile. TBH I do think that anything less than two rows and 55t minimum overload capacity is a failure of potential with this LCAC design. However I'd prefer to wait and see more photos, such as one with a Type 96 or Type 99 sitting on the deck, before I make any more assumptions.

If it can't carry a MBT, it is worthless. They have plenty of amphibious ships that can carry all their amphibious ships close enough to the shore to get on their. They don't need to build an expensive lpd + a complete new hovercraft design to just carry 3 more Type 05 amphibious units over. They have a bunch of smaller hovercraft that can also do it, they don't need a new larger hovercraft and then waste space and payload and money.

Not at all. And as far as I know the PLAN doesn't have any smaller hovercrafts that can even load one single IFV. The next smaller size of hovercraft they operate is the Type 724, which can load no more than a squad of marines.

The point of a hovercraft is not just what it can carry, but where it can unload. Amphibious ships have the same restrictions on beaches they can attack whether they're unloading tanks or IFV's. The 071/LCAC combination provides an unprecedented capability for the PLAN in massively opening up the number of beaches they can assault. This is true whether they are unloading MBT's or 'just' IFV's. Keep in mind the PLAN now has the EFV-type light tank design (ZBD-2000 tank variant) which can assault a beach at high speeds without the help of an LCAC, so it's not like there won't be anything heavier than autocannon in the fight.

 

[tphuang]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

That is not what I'm saying. I said it has the width in some places, but that it is totally impractical and physically impossible to secure two side by side. Going from back to front, the transmission compartments that straddle the rear ramp prevent two from being able to fit. Just forward of that the space widens where you could fit two. Just forward of that however, are two poorly placed vents which again narrow the space and prevent two from fitting. Just forward of that the space widens again, allowing two. However, just forward of that is the ramp which clearly is designed for only one vehicle to egress at a time. The width of this ramp is even narrower than the space (width) the vents permit. This pattern of narrow, wide, narrow, wide, narrow clearly indicates to me the designers did not have any intentions of loading vehicles side by side, as it would be very difficult to load and unload 2 rows with these physical barriers in place. For me to be convinced that this LCAC can load two rows, they would have to relocate the vent structures to the outside of the LCAC, put mooring line holes down the midline, and widen the front ramp. As you say this is a prototype, and if we see these kinds of modifications in the future, I think this hovercraft will become more versatile. TBH I do think that anything less than two rows and 55t minimum overload capacity is a failure of potential with this LCAC design. However I'd prefer to wait and see more photos, such as one with a Type 96 or Type 99 sitting on the deck, before I make any more assumptions.

So, basically you wasted an entire paragraph attempting to say that you were arguing for something different, when you really weren't.
At least we can agree on less than 2 rows and 55t being failure.

Not at all. And as far as I know the PLAN doesn't have any smaller hovercrafts that can even load one single IFV. The next smaller size of hovercraft they operate is the Type 724, which can load no more than a squad of marines.

The point of a hovercraft is not just what it can carry, but where it can unload. Amphibious ships have the same restrictions on beaches they can attack whether they're unloading tanks or IFV's. The 071/LCAC combination provides an unprecedented capability for the PLAN in massively opening up the number of beaches they can assault. This is true whether they are unloading MBT's or 'just' IFV's. Keep in mind the PLAN now has the EFV-type light tank design (ZBD-2000 tank variant) which can assault a beach at high speeds without the help of an LCAC, so it's not like there won't be anything heavier than autocannon in the fight.

That was my point. If they have amphibious armour vehicles (tanks and IFVs) that do not need LCAC, what additional values does something that cannot carry MBT bring to the table? Why would they need to get LCACs to carry a few ZBD-03 to the shore, when ZBD-05 and ZTS-04 can get on the shore without it?

btw, this is from a Chinese military magazine (modern ships) comparing the Chinese to American one. It shows the Chinese one been longer and wider than the American counterpart. You can make your own assessments based on these overhead diagrams. Not sure if it's dimensions are accurate, but it's powerplant figures should be. Looks like the Chinese ones have higher thrust and should be able to carry the same payload as American ones.

 

[yanyan25]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

the 3320 did have 30m+ in length. your guys can check via GE. but for width, I think it is not very accruate.