071 LPD thread

[asif iqbal]

When it comes to how many LPD China will build I think people are missing the point

This whole 1 out of 3 available at any time is not always true just earlier this year when MH-370 was missing China had all 3 x LPD deployed along with 3 out of the 4 tankers you don't know what a country will do when war is on

First you have to look at who operates the Type 071 LPD and by all accounts as is evident from the equipment the LPD carrys it's users is the Chinese marines not the army or other branches of the navy

Chinese marine corps consist of 2 x Brigades, the 1st marine brigade and 164th brigade consisting of 6,000 marines each so that's 12,000 marines

If China wants to lift a single brigade of 6,000 men the you will require 7-9 x Type 071 LPD and all their equipment machines

So it goes without question that China is likely going to establish a LPD fleet which is going to be pretty large

Since the entire Corps takes with it all the light tanks, APC and amphibious vehicles this will be one of the three branches of a future amphibious ready group

If and when China adds the LHA/LHD then they can add to that the aviation branch also

 

[tphuang]

When it comes to how many LPD China will build I think people are missing the point

This whole 1 out of 3 available at any time is not always true just earlier this year when MH-370 was missing China had all 3 x LPD deployed along with 3 out of the 4 tankers you don't know what a country will do when war is on

First you have to look at who operates the Type 071 LPD and by all accounts as is evident from the equipment the LPD carrys it's users is the Chinese marines not the army or other branches of the navy

Chinese marine corps consist of 2 x Brigades, the 1st marine brigade and 164th brigade consisting of 6,000 marines each so that's 12,000 marines

If China wants to lift a single brigade of 6,000 men the you will require 7-9 x Type 071 LPD and all their equipment machines

So it goes without question that China is likely going to establish a LPD fleet which is going to be pretty large

Since the entire Corps takes with it all the light tanks, APC and amphibious vehicles this will be one of the three branches of a future amphibious ready group

If and when China adds the LHA/LHD then they can add to that the aviation branch also

It looks like the navy uses it more than the marine right now. Navy can use it as the command ship of a flotilla. It was only recently that we've seen Type 071 been used by marines. The majority of PLAMC missions are probably in nearby waters which Type 072 can do. If PLA wants lift a brigade of 6000 men, it will deploy it's Type 072 fleet.

Once China adds LHD, maybe Type 071 will be used more by the marines. I guess that's also part of development we want to see in PLAMC. That it gets larger and more sophisticated over time and train for missions further and further away from home.

 

[asif iqbal]

Yes I should have been more clear, when talking about deployment I mean a long range prolonged deployment

Cus even now if China wants to deploy men there's plenty of ships they can use for close to shore deployments including those civilian roll on and roll off ships that can carry plenty of armour

 

[Jeff Head]

Their layout is very similar but the San Antonio is significantly larger though at 25K to the 071's 20K displacement right?

I beleive that the TYpe 071 is more like 23,000 tons...some think even higher.

The first three are all in the south Sea Fleet and were commissioned starting in 2007:

#1 998 Kunlun Shan 2007
#2 999 Jinggang Shan 2011
#3 989 Changbai Shan 2012

I also have seen recently (and unoffically) where three more are planned, two of which have already been named...one of which is alreayd builing.

#4 978 Tanggula Shan Hudong 2015 To be determined East Sea Fleet Under Construction
#5 979 Tai Shan Hudong 2015 To be determined East Sea Fleet Planned
#6 As yet not numbered and unnamed.

My understanding is that all three of these will be assigned to the East Sea Fleet.

Time will tell.

 

[Blitzo]

You know what I would like to see?

LCUs.

Develop a high speed LCU using the same water jets as 022, to give it a 30-40 knot speed (or at least faster than the 10-12 knots of most LCUs today). You can hold more LCUs in the space of a well deck compared to an LCAC, and despite being limited to beaches, I think realistically, the PLANs main areas of contention will likely be sited at beaches.

Best part is, an LCU can be highly relevant in a cross strait contingency where it may be unwise to put too many landing craft all within one LPD. You can launch coordinated waves of high speed LCUs carrying varieties of AFVs. Also, as big of a draw, will be the ability for smaller shipyards to build and launch them. LCUs would be much simpler to build than 022s, and in just a few years they can pump out potentially hundreds of high speed, versatile LCUs useful for both TW contingencies and for blue water power projection when launched from LPDs

 

[no_name]

Is this the fifth ship?

 

[Jeff Head]

Is this the fifth ship?

I do not know...but as far along as that is, I would guess it is probably the 4th one.

I honestly believe we are going to see at least2-3 more of these for the PLAN. A total of six now sounds plausible.

Any strong Amphibious group launched by the PLAN will, IMHO, ultimately include t least one larger LHD, a couple of LPDs and then 3-4 of their LST type vessels.

 

[asif iqbal]

If they have restarted the Type 071 LPD construction then I would fully expect the modules coming online of the 5th unit

After all the second and third units come on in quick succession so I don't expect to wait long for the 5th and 6th units

So exciting we are seeing more LPD from China finally the wait is over

I would like to see a fully loaded LPD now and I mean 4 x Z8 and 4 x LCAC and more flexibility in the operations, they need to be more ambitious with these ships they are very good

 

[Jeff Head]

You know what I would like to see?

LCUs.

Develop a high speed LCU using the same water jets as 022, to give it a 30-40 knot speed (or at least faster than the 10-12 knots of most LCUs today). You can hold more LCUs in the space of a well deck compared to an LCAC, and despite being limited to beaches, I think realistically, the PLANs main areas of contention will likely be sited at beaches.

Best part is, an LCU can be highly relevant in a cross strait contingency where it may be unwise to put too many landing craft all within one LPD.

Well, LCUs are usually much heavier and longer than an LCAC. Their hull form is also generally flat bottomed, so getting one to the 40 knot speed is going to be difficult unless you do something like the French did with their EDA-R vessel, which is a catamaran and even then is only going to be doing 20 knots for most of its activities (although it can sprint faster).

Generally, currently, if you want something fast, you will use an Air Cushion vessel. But if you want more carry weight and longer distances (albeit at a lot slower speeds) you use an LCU.

Here's a comparison, of four LCU types and three LCAC...and I am talking about the vessels that are meant to be carried by a large amphhibious ship:

USN LCU D-380 tons, L-135', Beam-29', Draft-7', Spped-12 knts, 1,200 nm range, Carry-350 tons, 32 in service
UK- LCU D-240 tons, L-98', Beam-24', Draft-10', Speed-10 knts, 600 nm range, Carry-100 tons, 10 in service
FR- EDAR D-285 tons,L-98', Beam-42', Draft-8,' Speed-20 knts, 1,000 nm range, Carry-110 tons, 4 in service
SPA LCM-1E D-110 tons, L-76', Beam-21', Draft-3', Speed-22 knts, 190 nm range,

USN LCAC D-182 tons, L-88', Beam-47', Draft-0'. Speed-40+ knts, 200 nm range, Carry-70 tons, 91 in service
RUS Lebed D-114 tons, L-81', Beam-35', Draft-0', Speed-50+ knts, 100 nm range, Carry-37 tons, 3 in service
PRC 726, D-160 tons, L-98', BEam-52', Draft-0', Speed, 45+ knts, 150 nm range, Carry-50 tons, 3-4 built

Note: Spain has 14 of the LCM-1Es for its Juan Carlos LHD and two LPDs, Australia has ordered 12 of the same for its two Canberra Class LHDs, and Turkey is expected to order the same landing craft for its new LHD which will also be based on the Juan Carlos.

As you can see, the LCUs are generally heavier and quite a bit loger than the LCACs and so you cannot carry more of them in a LPD or LHD/LHA's well deck.

Now, smaller LCVPs (and perhaps this is what you meant) can be carried in larger numbers in the Well Decks of the larger Amphoibious assault vessels. But they are generally quite a bit smaller than either the LCUs or the LCACs and cannot generally carry Main BAttle Tanks. The UK, Japan, And many other nations have these landing craft and they generally displace about 25 tons, are abouyt 50' long and have a beam of maybe 15'. They are capable of 25 knotrs and can carry 30-35 troops.

 

[Blitzo]

Well I don't have any knowledge regarding naval engineering, but I'm basically thinking of a slightly smaller LCU (maybe 100 ton payload, enough for an MBT or maybe three IFVs) with similarly reduced dimensions to fit the same propulsion of an 022. I don't think any LCUs have been equipped with water jets before, and I'm not sure how the power/weight ratio would work out either... But I think it should be worth looking into.

I will look into the various power/weight ratio of various vessels later, af I suppose the hull form of an LCU will impose limitations but I think improvements to legacy designs are plausible.

I suggest this only because Chinese shipbuilding have demonstrated an ability to build small 200+ ton, fast, FACs, so I think applying the same proven and accessible propulsion to improve amphibious assault could be plausible.
Optimally such an LCU will be half te beam of a PLAN LCAC so they can fit twice the number of LCUs for LCACs, but even if it is only 2/3 the beam, that means the other 1/3 beam could' be used for RHIBs or AAVs. In terms of capability it will probably be less than an LCAC but will probably be cheaper and much easier to produce because it would be a more conventional design