071 LPD thread
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re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
It is in a unique position to add ASW capabiliets, mine hunting capabilities, SAR capabilities, and AEW capabiliies as well which will be far superior than a helicopter platform in each of those areas.
An America Class vessel, or other, allied sea contorl vessel, once those other variants are available, will have very significant capabilities in advance of any other VSTOL Carrier in operation that does not have them. nSo you can be sure that the aircraft has a long history in front of it.
So, that bird, despite its difficult beginnings, perservered precisely because it was such a game changer for air assault and many other areas and developing and fielding such technology is not for the feint hearted or shallow pocket book.
Actually, the V-22 has added significant and critical capabilities to the US Marines in terms of speed, range, and cargo/troops.mysterre said:
It is in a unique position to add ASW capabiliets, mine hunting capabilities, SAR capabilities, and AEW capabiliies as well which will be far superior than a helicopter platform in each of those areas.
An America Class vessel, or other, allied sea contorl vessel, once those other variants are available, will have very significant capabilities in advance of any other VSTOL Carrier in operation that does not have them. nSo you can be sure that the aircraft has a long history in front of it.
So, that bird, despite its difficult beginnings, perservered precisely because it was such a game changer for air assault and many other areas and developing and fielding such technology is not for the feint hearted or shallow pocket book.
The lack of a partition in the middle allows for maximizing the space in terms of the various sizes and types of helos carried and how they can be parked and serviced within the hangar. Clearly, the vessel is not relying on a center partition for structural integrity of the hangar.
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MwRYum
Major
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
Which brings the significance in prepping the military model of Z-15, which is somewhere in the UH-60 grade; whereas the Z-9 is too light and too small for many purposes, while Z-8 may have the bulk to carry more troops but lacks the lifting capacity unless replaced with >1000hp engines, yet such still lacks a domestic option; Mi-17 can do the job nicely but AFAIK it's rotors aren't fold-able.
Which brings the significance in prepping the military model of Z-15, which is somewhere in the UH-60 grade; whereas the Z-9 is too light and too small for many purposes, while Z-8 may have the bulk to carry more troops but lacks the lifting capacity unless replaced with >1000hp engines, yet such still lacks a domestic option; Mi-17 can do the job nicely but AFAIK it's rotors aren't fold-able.
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
Flattops of that size without take off assistance were interesting for the USSR, are interesting for the US for their own peculiar reasons.
Added: When they decide that helicopters are not enough of course. Will there be any US client with enough money to buy and maintain Ospreys?
A non-US sea control ship of 40 000 ton or even smaller would use ski ramp and/or cat to launch aircraft with ASW, AEW and mine hunting capabilities at a vastly lower cost in procurement and maintenance. Long range air assault from the sea as far as for example Afghanistan will probably always remain too unimportant for any country but the US.
Flattops of that size without take off assistance were interesting for the USSR, are interesting for the US for their own peculiar reasons.
Added: When they decide that helicopters are not enough of course. Will there be any US client with enough money to buy and maintain Ospreys?
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asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
V22 was needed for 2 reasons, speed and lift capacity, it fullfills both roles very well which is why USMC order is so huge
when operating from a LHD it can deploy more men and materials faster than any other aircraft to shore, USN was even not happy with the super heavy lifters like the Sea Stallions, infact V22 is replacing them, so imagine the capability V22 has if it is taking over from Sea Stallion which is a formidable helicopter, its sheer size and weight are amazing
V22 was needed for 2 reasons, speed and lift capacity, it fullfills both roles very well which is why USMC order is so huge
when operating from a LHD it can deploy more men and materials faster than any other aircraft to shore, USN was even not happy with the super heavy lifters like the Sea Stallions, infact V22 is replacing them, so imagine the capability V22 has if it is taking over from Sea Stallion which is a formidable helicopter, its sheer size and weight are amazing
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
The Mil Mi-6 helicopter of 1957 lifted 12 tons
The Sikorsky CH-53E, most powerful of the CH-53 family and called Super Stallion, first flight 1974 ), lifts internally 13.6 ton, externally 14.5 tons
(CH-53D, an ordinary Sea Stallion, had a useful load of 8000#, 3630kg;
A more powerful Super Stallion, CH-53K, is said by wikipedia to be in development )
The Mil V-12 ( two build, around 1970 ) could carry a payload of 25 tons VTOL, 30 tons STOL, record just over 44 tons.
The Mil Mi-26, still in production, first flight 1977, 20 tons payload.
And the Osprey carries 20000#, 9070 kg.
The main advantage of the Osprey is its speed and range, not its payload.
Just a few details:
The Mil Mi-6 helicopter of 1957 lifted 12 tons
The Sikorsky CH-53E, most powerful of the CH-53 family and called Super Stallion, first flight 1974 ), lifts internally 13.6 ton, externally 14.5 tons
(CH-53D, an ordinary Sea Stallion, had a useful load of 8000#, 3630kg;
A more powerful Super Stallion, CH-53K, is said by wikipedia to be in development )
The Mil V-12 ( two build, around 1970 ) could carry a payload of 25 tons VTOL, 30 tons STOL, record just over 44 tons.
The Mil Mi-26, still in production, first flight 1977, 20 tons payload.
And the Osprey carries 20000#, 9070 kg.
The main advantage of the Osprey is its speed and range, not its payload.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
the helo i had in mind was the USMC CH-46 but mentioned CH-53 since thier replacement in Japan, CH-46 which is used for troop transport, in terms of that respect V22 is faster, lift more and yes fly further and is quiter, but yes in terms of overall lift compared to heavy weights it isnt up there, and US Army is in talks with Boeing to allow Chinnok to be able to lift in excess of 16 tons, this is in May issue of AFM 2011, i do not think Sea Stallion was chosen for further development
the helo i had in mind was the USMC CH-46 but mentioned CH-53 since thier replacement in Japan, CH-46 which is used for troop transport, in terms of that respect V22 is faster, lift more and yes fly further and is quiter, but yes in terms of overall lift compared to heavy weights it isnt up there, and US Army is in talks with Boeing to allow Chinnok to be able to lift in excess of 16 tons, this is in May issue of AFM 2011, i do not think Sea Stallion was chosen for further development
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
Each of them have carriers who could use it and be vastly improved by so doing. Even with ski-ramps, no nation with such a capability has developed a long range, high altitude, high capability AEW aircraft to date...they are using helos for that purpose. An AEW V-22 couldgive capabilities close to the E-2C, and at any rate, far better than the current -31s and Sea Kingas, or even the proposed Merlins, being used.
As to ASW the reach and loadout capabilities would make an ASW V-22 similarly worth their while. In fact, I believe ever since the S-3s were taken out of ASW srevice, the US Navy would benefit from them as well. And would similarly use the AEW version on the Americas and the Wasps.
Well, I was not speaking of long range air assault. I was speaking specifically of Sea Control. In that areana I believe the UK, Korea, Japan, Italy, Spain and probably Australia would all be interested in an AEW V-22 particularly, and an ASW variant of the V-22 too.
Each of them have carriers who could use it and be vastly improved by so doing. Even with ski-ramps, no nation with such a capability has developed a long range, high altitude, high capability AEW aircraft to date...they are using helos for that purpose. An AEW V-22 couldgive capabilities close to the E-2C, and at any rate, far better than the current -31s and Sea Kingas, or even the proposed Merlins, being used.
As to ASW the reach and loadout capabilities would make an ASW V-22 similarly worth their while. In fact, I believe ever since the S-3s were taken out of ASW srevice, the US Navy would benefit from them as well. And would similarly use the AEW version on the Americas and the Wasps.
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
That is the key question in the context of the discussion. The Mil V-12 only had two built so lets throw that one out from the get go. It's not in and never was in production. The advanced Super Stalion is supposedly cancelled, so it is not on the table either. That leaves us with the Mi-6 and Mi-26. Are the Russian or anyone else operting these off of at-sea platforms?
If so, what is their range and speed compared to the Osprey?
The USMC is using the air assault version and the Air Force the SPECOPS version because of their ability to haul more men and equipment greater distances and faster than what they used before. For US allies this will also apply. There may well be helos with greater haul weights...but the question then is are those helos a fit for the long range, from sea to shore mission?
Of those you listed, which ones fly off of LPDs or LHAs?
That is the key question in the context of the discussion. The Mil V-12 only had two built so lets throw that one out from the get go. It's not in and never was in production. The advanced Super Stalion is supposedly cancelled, so it is not on the table either. That leaves us with the Mi-6 and Mi-26. Are the Russian or anyone else operting these off of at-sea platforms?
If so, what is their range and speed compared to the Osprey?
The USMC is using the air assault version and the Air Force the SPECOPS version because of their ability to haul more men and equipment greater distances and faster than what they used before. For US allies this will also apply. There may well be helos with greater haul weights...but the question then is are those helos a fit for the long range, from sea to shore mission?