056 class FFL/corvette
- Thread starter dingyibvs
- Start date
- Status
It's a type 54A.
LCS is clearly not going flat out as the Chinese Frigate would not be able to keep pace.
As far as 056 vs LCS, the Chinese corvette is more heavily armed as standard, but lacks the aviation facilities, speed and displacement of the LCS.
LCS is clearly not going flat out as the Chinese Frigate would not be able to keep pace.
As far as 056 vs LCS, the Chinese corvette is more heavily armed as standard, but lacks the aviation facilities, speed and displacement of the LCS.
Well, now that they are adding the over the horizon surface to surface missiles , I do nt believe you can say that they Type 056 is more heavily armed.
The Freedom and the Coronado will receive them first because they are deploying early in 2016.
The US Navy said, “The objective is to install the OTH missile system aboard all in-service LCS deploying to forward operating stations starting in fiscal year 2016, as well as on all under-construction LCS prior to their commissioning ceremonies.”
Form the announcements, it sounds like initially they will have Harpoons on the Freedom variant, and the Naval strike Missile on the Independence variety.
They sound like they will add two quad pack launchers, or eight missiles, to each ship.
So, an LCS Freedom class is going to have:
1 x 57mm gun
2 x 30mm guns
1 x 21 round RAM missile launcher
8 x Harpoon missiles
Hanger and pad for two Sea Hawk helos.
Displaces 3.,500 tons
Add the NSM for the Independence. and a displacement of 3,100 tons
The Type 056 has:
1 x 76mm gun
2 x 30mm guns
1 x 8 round FL-3000n missile launcher
4 x YJ-83 missiles
Pad for helo landing
Displaces: 1,500 tons
The LCS are really, as they should be, frigates and with the better armament or more closely matched against a Type 054A, which have a similar armament, but 32 AAW missiles instead of 21.
GREAT pic, particularly sitting their next to the Coast Guard cutter.
Good for LCS finally pack some punch suit for its size. Though I wouldn't compare RAM which is in the same league of HQ-10 to HQ-16 which 054A has.
Agreed...and that was my point.
The LCS, when fully armed,, will be more comparable to the Type 054A than the Type 056.
And that is understandable. The Type 056 is a much smaller vessel and made for more coastal patrol duties.
Now, it is very well armed for its size and role, and would be dangerous to any other frigate that came within its range and sensor reach...or the reach of land air patrols.
The LCS, like the Type 054A is made to go to distant areas of operation and be able to hold its own...though the LCS has had to go through a lot of evolution to get there...which IMHO should never have had to happen.
The Type 056 has come out of the yards very well armed for its mission...its improvements are tailoring for better ASW operation...which is understandable.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Well Jeff, I think the point Kriss made, which I agree with, is that the SAMs carried by the 054A is in an entirely different class to the SeaRAM carried by the LCS.
The LCS might have been designed to go on long range expeditionary missions, but it lacks the defensive and offensive capability to survive in the places it is designed to fight in against anyone with even modest defensive and offensive capabilities without substantil friendly naval and air support.
SeaRAM is a top class defensive missile, but unless the opfor is intending to use non-gliding iron bombs, it can't touch launch platforms unless the pilots screwed up spectacularly badly.
The LCS is, for the lack of a better term, a produce of gunboat diplomacy.
They are great, cost effective, platforms to send in against opponents who have no chance to fight back other than maybe with the odd pot shot with a missile or near suicidal attack run using musemum piece aircraft. For which, the SeaRAM is perfectly adequate.
They are also useful to send in to mop up and patrol after your navy and Air Force has already smashed an enemy's navy, airforce and coastal defences.
However, they add very little to a naval expeditionary force intending to go up against a near peer, other than maybe as fast sub chasers and/or mine sweepers, but for which they are vastly overpriced and overspeced.
The 054A is a true ship of the line, able to effectively contribute to either expeditionary fleet defence or independent operations in modest threat environments.
The 056 are indeed the best equivalent of the LCS for the PLAN. It's a low threat environment patrol light frigate, which is more than adequate for the threat environment of the SCS that they were designed to operate in.
In a fleet action, their primary contribution would be to act as a near disposable ASW screen for the principle fleet elements.
The ASW variants of the 056 carry a very comprehensive ASW warfare suite, and will pose a massive threat and problem for any enemy subs trying to sneak up on a PLAN task force. Although I don't think they have any mine clearing capabilities. So the LCS does have that over the 056. Although at twice the displacement and many many times the price, one really has to wonder if that is worth it.
Personally, I see the LCS as tailor made for the Middle East, specifically the Strait of Hormuz, where the USN's large surface fleet has historically felt threatened and vulnerable.
So rather than send in Burkes and Ticos, the USN can now deploy fleets of super fast LCS perfectly suited to hunting down the swarms of gun and missile boats and midget subs a certain regional power frequently deploy there.
All the while enjoying overwhelming support from friendly air and naval forces roaming just beyond the geographical bottlenecks, who will be responsible for keeping the skies clear and taking care of anything bigger than what the onboard 57 and 30mms can handle.
In that context, the LCS makes perfect sense and is superbly well suited and designed.
The problem arose because of the PIVOT, and as with any apex predator that gets dumped in a totally different environment, many of the features that made it so successful in its native environment are ill suited, or a downright hinderance in the new environment and against the very different prey and competition it must now face.
The LCS might have been designed to go on long range expeditionary missions, but it lacks the defensive and offensive capability to survive in the places it is designed to fight in against anyone with even modest defensive and offensive capabilities without substantil friendly naval and air support.
SeaRAM is a top class defensive missile, but unless the opfor is intending to use non-gliding iron bombs, it can't touch launch platforms unless the pilots screwed up spectacularly badly.
The LCS is, for the lack of a better term, a produce of gunboat diplomacy.
They are great, cost effective, platforms to send in against opponents who have no chance to fight back other than maybe with the odd pot shot with a missile or near suicidal attack run using musemum piece aircraft. For which, the SeaRAM is perfectly adequate.
They are also useful to send in to mop up and patrol after your navy and Air Force has already smashed an enemy's navy, airforce and coastal defences.
However, they add very little to a naval expeditionary force intending to go up against a near peer, other than maybe as fast sub chasers and/or mine sweepers, but for which they are vastly overpriced and overspeced.
The 054A is a true ship of the line, able to effectively contribute to either expeditionary fleet defence or independent operations in modest threat environments.
The 056 are indeed the best equivalent of the LCS for the PLAN. It's a low threat environment patrol light frigate, which is more than adequate for the threat environment of the SCS that they were designed to operate in.
In a fleet action, their primary contribution would be to act as a near disposable ASW screen for the principle fleet elements.
The ASW variants of the 056 carry a very comprehensive ASW warfare suite, and will pose a massive threat and problem for any enemy subs trying to sneak up on a PLAN task force. Although I don't think they have any mine clearing capabilities. So the LCS does have that over the 056. Although at twice the displacement and many many times the price, one really has to wonder if that is worth it.
Personally, I see the LCS as tailor made for the Middle East, specifically the Strait of Hormuz, where the USN's large surface fleet has historically felt threatened and vulnerable.
So rather than send in Burkes and Ticos, the USN can now deploy fleets of super fast LCS perfectly suited to hunting down the swarms of gun and missile boats and midget subs a certain regional power frequently deploy there.
All the while enjoying overwhelming support from friendly air and naval forces roaming just beyond the geographical bottlenecks, who will be responsible for keeping the skies clear and taking care of anything bigger than what the onboard 57 and 30mms can handle.
In that context, the LCS makes perfect sense and is superbly well suited and designed.
The problem arose because of the PIVOT, and as with any apex predator that gets dumped in a totally different environment, many of the features that made it so successful in its native environment are ill suited, or a downright hinderance in the new environment and against the very different prey and competition it must now face.
Last edited:
Not really Wolf.
The LCS has suffered from an evolution that has included a lot of administrative and bureaucratic nonsense that has had to be overcome. In the configuration's that came out of that...you would be correct in terms of you analysis.
But now they are in the process of being armed appropriately and they will certainly not be in a position where they are unable to either defend themselves or contend with peer and near peer vessels they may run up against.
Before the new ASMs and upgrades to their sensors and weaponry were decided upon fairly recently...the statements you made about the combat capabilities were true...but that is being rectified.
Yes, the 32 VLS cells for the Type 054A are better able to deal with larger attacks and some area coverage which the LCS cannot. But they have not been designed to do that...where as the Type 054A has.
The RAM missiles will allow them to defend themselves well against the types of situations they may reasonably run up against when operating either alone or in a section of two vessels.
If there is any thought that they may meet up with a large task force of similar or larger vessels, they would be tasked into a SAG which would include one or more Burkes.
Plawolf said:
As I say, in their earlier configurations the comparison to the 056 was apt. Now the LCS is expected to be more of a FFG player. it will perform ASW duties for the larger vessels, and it will be a capable anti-surface wrfare vessels as stated above.
What it will lack is the ability to contribute heavily to any area defense, or large saturation attacks.
This is a big doifference...but I expect if the PLAN expected a Type 054A to truly run up against large area defense needs, or large saturation attacks, they would end up having a 52C or 52D tasked with them as well.
Plawolf said:
It may have been point tasked for that type of environment earlier...and it will still serve well there.
buibt the changes that are being made are going to broaden its capabilities and it will be deployed accordingly.
Peraonlly, the US Navy should have designed a more capable multi-role FFG for the LCS. But they did not. They have been left with tryoing to upgrade it so that is can perfrom better...and they will be successful at it.
but the latest decision to cut their numbers to 40 means to me that the US Navy oin the next few years...probably sometime during the next administration's term, is going to present a more capable Multi-role frigate and then build 20-24 of those as well.
We will just have to wait and see.
The problem arose because of the PIVOT, and as with any apex predator that gets dumped in a totally different environment, many of the features that made it so successful in its native environment are ill suited, or a downright hinderance in the new environment and against the very different prey and competition it must now face.[/QUOTE]
plawolf
Lieutenant General
That is true, to some extent.
The problem is that the solution, without meaning to be rude, is bluntly a little jerry-rigged.
Parking some AShM launchers on the helipad adds the previously omitted OTH ASuW capability, but compromises he stealth of the designs and negatively impacts on its aviation capabilities.
Well that's precisely my point. Given the tonnage and expense of the LCS, I think they should have been designed from the start to be a more all-rounded FFG rather than the extra specialised beast it was originally made as.
The decision to proceed with both designs, is, also in my view a mistake since it should have been a one or the other choice. Even if one was determined to proceed with both, it would have made a hell of a lot more sense to make the Freedom class a Hormuz specialist class, while developing the Freedom class into a more general purpose FFG.
In my view, the independence class should have been the clear winner. Its design pretty much begged to have a MK41 VLS capability installed from the get go just behind the main gun. Doing so would have not only fully resolved its ASuW deficiency without having to make the compromises mentioned above with the deck mounted launchers but also allowed them to acquire medium ranged area AAW capabilities on par with, if not better than, the 054A for very a modest price increase.
The difference is that even while teamed up with heavier buddies, the 054A can make a valuable, positive contribution to fleet AAW defences by providing the medium air defence layer, whereas unless you decided to effectively have LCS's shadow other ships, their SeaRAMs cannot reasonably be expected to protect anyone but themselves (but doing so will take the LCS out of the ASW game, thereby removing the point of having it in the task group in the first place).
In any real operational scenarios, any LCS in a combined USN naval task group will only be able to perform ASW duties, and will be a burden to the overall fleet AAW by needing other ships to cover it for everything except last ditch CIWS defences (which you ideally do not ever want to have to face), whereas the 054A can positively contribute to fleet AAW defences while also engaging the ASW duties.
I just think its a bit of a wasted opportunity to have LCS' that can only really do a single mission even when part of a larger task group (if its part of such a task group, its unlikely to ever have to use its newly acquired ASuW capability), when the Independence class in particular, have inherent potential to easily do so much more.
Fully agreed, but its a massive wasted opportunity and wasted resources in my view.
The US has a silly defence budget, but it still should stop making such obvious and easily avoidable miss-steps.
- Status